Burch: Pray away the gay?

Thursday, March 24, 2011 at 10:05pm
By Michael R. Burch

Apple and the Christian group Exodus International have hooked up to sell an app designed to help people “pray away the gay.” But human sexuality is not a disease and how many red-blooded heterosexuals have ever been “cured” of being attracted to people of the opposite sex? Baptist ministers and Catholic priests regularly get caught with their pants down, sometimes in public. As Mark Twain noted, most men would give up any chance of heaven to be with the Eves of their preference for a few moments of earthly bliss. So why not be honest: If God doesn’t cure heterosexuals of their sexual desires, should we expect non-heterosexuals to experience divine intervention?

Unfortunately, Nashville seems to be the nerve-center for the stone-age Neanderthalism that results in gays being discriminated against and threatened with an “eternal hell” if they don’t “repent.” Nashville is home to the Southern Baptist Convention and its LifeWay publishing arm. According to its website, LifeWay “is one of the world’s largest providers of Christian products and services, including Bibles” which it sells through 162 LifeWay Christian Stores. The website also informs visitors that “LifeWay has produced one of the most accurate and readable Bible translations ever — the Holman Christian Standard Bible [HCSB].”

Wow, that’s wonderfully impressive, but the SBC and LifeWay are strongly involved with the movement to condemn non-repentant gays and lesbians to the flames of an eternal hell, in the names of God and Jesus. Does this mean God and Jesus are bigots?

Curiously, the highly accurate HCSB translation of the Bible doesn’t contain the word “hell” anywhere in its Old Testament, or in any of the epistles of Paul, or in the book of Acts (the self-recorded history of the early Christian church). In fact, the word “hell” appears in a scant 10 verses, primarily in the gospels of Matthew and Mark. Bible scholars generally agree that Matthew and Mark are based on the same original text, so this suggests that only one Bible writer knew anything about a place called “hell.”

“Hell” obviously didn’t preexist, according to the Bible, because such a place was never mentioned to Adam, Eve, Cain, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Moses or a long line of Hebrew prophets. But neither is there any verse in the Bible in which God or any prophet ever announced the creation and purpose of “hell” (a curious omission, to say the least, when the SBC and LifeWay earn truckloads of money by convincing people they need to be “saved” from “hell”).

So why is the SBC blaspheming the name of God by saying gays have to repent or suffer for all eternity? Perhaps God and Jesus aren’t bigots and torturers of human beings, after all.

Michael R. Burch is a Nashville-based editor and publisher of Holocaust poetry and other “things literary,” at www.thehypertexts.com.

120 Comments on this post:

By: yogiman on 3/25/11 at 9:47

dumba..,

Did you mean to call me a "pig's" ass, or did you simply (as I use the term loosely) mean plural "pigs asses"?

It's hard to understand what you are posting in your manner of sentencing and spelling of various words. Could you please explain what you mean so I will be able to understand better in the future?

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 9:52

Like so many simple things yogi, it is too hard for you to understand.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 9:55

Now if anyone would like to correct all of yogi’s typos and bad grammar feel free to do so.

By: dargent7 on 3/25/11 at 9:59

22/7ths or Pie Delta: We're OFF the main topic of being "gay" and you're into premarital sex as being a "sin".
At least try to stay on- topic the off- topic.
Even "yogi" can keep up.
The myopic "house" is on it. Topically speaking.

By: Loner on 3/25/11 at 9:59

Phi Delta doubts the Lone One: "I dont think that anyone is going to start a huge social battle over the low percentage of GLB workers that want to cover their spouse."

Really, it is you, my friend who is exhibiting naivete. Check out this site:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/same-sex-couples-federal-marriage-benefits-30326.html

The article is entitled, "Federal Marriage Benefits Denied to Same-Sex Couples" and it appears on a site run by a credible group, NOLO, Law for All.

Here's a snippet for you:

Gay and lesbian same-sex couples, whether married or not, are denied a whole host of benefits that the federal government provides to heterosexual married couples. There are over one thousand federal laws in which marriage status is a factor. These laws confer rights, protections, and benefits to married couples. Partners in same-sex couples cannot receive these important benefits -- from Social Security survivor benefits to federal tax benefits to federal employee health and retirement benefits.

Oh yeah, there's big money at stake here; I stand by my original post on this topic.

Beyond the money, there is political pandering afoot here. To get the bigot vote, you gotta play the bigotry card...in the South, that's a sine qua non.

And there's the collection plate & tithing angle...gay-bashing ministries can be quite profitable....bashing gays packs the pews.

By: dargent7 on 3/25/11 at 10:03

"Gays should be allowed to marry. They deserve to be as miserable as the rest of us"...
Who said that? Jack Benny? Gary Shandling?

By: brrrrk on 3/25/11 at 10:06

You want to see a "being gay is a choice" person spin their wheels? Ask them at what age they decided to be straight.... or ask them how they know for sure if they're really not gay if they've never tried it... or better yet, ask them if the only reason they're straight is because the right person of the same sex just hasn't come along yet. Trust me, it's fun to see the smoke come out their ears. :-)

It's almost as fun as asking the "free market, supply siders" what the source of capital is.

By: Loner on 3/25/11 at 10:08

Groucho Marx or Mark Twain?

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 10:15

Now back to the topic.

Religion is not God’s work it is a political tool to control the masses. It is used to scare and herd people like sheep into bondage.

Now saying that I don’t think all religions or churches fall into this kind of behavior. I truly think that some really mean to do what they think best, but they have been taught by other humans.

For me God is a personal matter and if you want to discuss how I believe, then I will do so as honestly as I can, but if you want to tell that you way is the only way….we have a problem then.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 10:19

Now d7 we are suppose to let yogi be yogi. lol

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 10:20

I thought the subject was gay aliens and why they can’t marry?

By: Loner on 3/25/11 at 10:21

I agree, Brrrk.

Tell them that personal "choices" are also protected by the Constitution. Choice of religion is protected, choice of speech is somewhat protected, as are voting choices, residency choices, travel choices et cetera.

We cannot choose who our our ancestors were and we cannot change our chronological age or birth gender...these factors are not legitimate reasons for prejudicial actions and the law recognizes this.

We should not forget that personal choices, so long as they are legal, are also protected by the US Constitution....it's the Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness thing.

By: Mike Burch on 3/25/11 at 10:22

Thanks for everyone's comments. For the record, I'm a happily married heterosexual father who grew up in evangelical Christian churches. I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church here in Nashville, but after my baptism I began to have dreams in which I saw that my pastor didn't believe what he was preaching. I studied the Bible in great depth and realized that there was no mention of a place called "hell" in the entire Old Testament, or the epistles of Paul, or the book of Acts. The Hebrew word "Sheol" and the Greek word "Hades" clearly mean "the grave" or the abode of all the dead. Everyone went to Sheol/Hades when they died, not just the wicked. The Jews never even had a word for hell. The Greek word for hell is Tartarus and it appears in only one verse in the Bible: 2 Peter 2:4. But that verse is about fallen angels awaiting judgment, so that "hell" is not eternal and is not for human beings.

I came to the obvious conclusion: some of the early writers of the Bible cobbled a few verses about punishment after death into the Bible, at a very late date. According to Origen and Celsus, the copyists of the Bible were changing the texts at whim. Celsus said that the copyists changed the texts as if they were drunk.

Now for nearly 2,000 years Christian popes, priests and evangelists have used "hell" to terrorize and brainwash innocent children into believing that human beings are in danger of hell. I know, because I was one of those children. I wish parents would think about what happens to young, highly impressionable children when they are told human beings will be punished for all eternity for having sex. In what dimension does making love justify eternal torture? What happens to those children when they reach puberty? If they believe that people go to hell for having sex, or even thinking about sex (since Jesus said the thought is the same as the act), what happens if gays go to hell? Then everyone must go to hell, because everyone thinks about sex and the Holy Spirit doesn't "cure" human sexual desire, because human sexual desire is not a disease.

Thus, pastors and parents who tell their children that the Bible is the "infallible word of God" condemn their own children to hell, if they say that homosexuals cannot go to heaven. How much fear, anxiety and stress do these "men of God" inflict on innocent children? Why do parents allow their children to be emotionally, psychologically and spiritually abused?

The morals of orthodox, hell-based Christianity are so skewed that priests and pastors seem to be unable to understand that any sort of consensual sex between adults is not a "crime" or "sin" and certainly does not warrant eternal punishment. Nor does the Bible say anything about anyone suffering after death, until a few hellish verses popped up here and there at the last minute. How could a loving, just, all-wise God forget to tell all his best human friends about hell, for thousands of years? If he created hell later, how could he have failed to warn every person on earth?

Hell has never made any sense, and if there is no hell, there is no reason to torture children with such a sickening dogma.

Someone criticized me for writing several articles about discrimination against homosexuals. Why do I care, since I'm not gay myself? Because I know how terrifying it is to grow up with adults telling me that I would go to hell if I had sex, or even thought about sex before marriage. I know exactly how young gay children must feel, and I empathize with them and their suffering.

Mike Burch

By: brrrrk on 3/25/11 at 10:26

Loner said

"Tell them that personal 'choices' are also protected by the Constitution. Choice of religion is protected, choice of speech is somewhat protected, as are voting choices, residency choices, travel choices et cetera."

Spot on. If there ever was something called a "lifestyle choice", one's religion is surely it. There is nothing genetic about religion.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 10:32

Mike does this mean you are a recovering Southern Baptist?

By: brrrrk on 3/25/11 at 10:36

Mike,

You should check out the writings of Bart Ehrman, the author of Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why . He comes from pretty much the same background as yourself. I have an old high school chum who's a Religion Department Chair of a university (as well as an associate of Ehrman's) who says Ehrman's research is well supported.

By: house_of_pain on 3/25/11 at 10:40

Personally, I prefer "When Will Jesus Bring The Pork Chops?", by G. Carlin.

Wouldn't having children also fall under "lifestyle choice"?

By: brrrrk on 3/25/11 at 10:42

house_of_pain said

"Personally, I prefer 'When Will Jesus Bring The Pork Chops?', by G. Carlin."

Yes indeed, another fine read.

By: PhiDelt496 on 3/25/11 at 10:46

Dargent, You have missed my point again, therefore, I give up on you.

Loner,

I dont deny that they are denied those benefits, I deny that this is a major reason to stop gay marriage. Lets say that 5% of the population is GLB, and only half of them would be married, that is 2.5% of total population. Since for spousal insurance to be needed, one of the two have to be employeed lets cut that number in half again. Now we are at 1.25% of total us population. Now assuming that half of those marriages would be two employeed people, that brings the number down again to .625% of total population or less than 2M people covered by spousal benefits. Since employers pay a much lower percentage of the spouses benefits than the employee's the financial impact would be minimal compared to the number of straight employees that have children every year and tacking on to the employer benefits.

People are against gay marriage because anyone with differing beliefs than them are wrong and should be punished. The problem is that even the people for gay marriage think this way. And everyone just buries their head in the sand convinced that they are right. Then we force our politicians to take a side on the issue and only vote for those who agree with us. Which causes polarization. That is alot of the reason we are in the situations we are, people dont want to listen to logic and reason and cant wait to make their next point. And I am the world's worst about this.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 10:48

I had come to a similar conclusion during my life time and found many things that was said to be gospel, not to be so.

I had a friend in school whose family went to church every Sunday, even if they were out of town. On one such occasion they visited a local church in a town they were in and the preacher asked if they had been saved, which they said yes. He then asked them if he had saved them and when they told him no, he said that they had not be saved then and he would do it before they left his church.

My friend parents turned and for once missed a Sunday service.

By: Mike Burch on 3/25/11 at 10:57

Yes, I consider myself a recovering Southern Baptist. And my wife seems to think I'm a better man for it!

Mike

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 11:08

LOL

By: Loner on 3/25/11 at 11:15

Phi Delta wrote: "Now we are at 1.25% of total us population. Now assuming that half of those marriages would be two employeed people, that brings the number down again to .625% of total population or less than 2M people covered by spousal benefits."

I question the validity of halving the number of persons affected by this situation, if both partners are employed. If one partner's plan is better, then one partner becoming a "spouse" becomes attractive...one partner will often save himself and his employer the cost of individual coverage by electing to become their partner's spouse. This happens with heterosexual marriages all the time; why would GLBT's be any different?

Phi Delta, I appreciate your point and I wish that you could convince the employer's out there that they have nothing to fear if same sex marriage becomes lawful and recognized. Perhaps the opponents of the "gay agenda" have exaggerated the negative financial impact for employers, as part of their propaganda efforts.

The insurance companies are also to be factored in. They may be reluctant to extend coverage to GLBT couples, because of a real or perceived risk for higher numbers of expensive HIV claims.

Finally, there's the political pandering and grandstanding angle to consider. The lobbying by special interest groups is fierce. With all this in mind, one can see how common sense and logic have a limited role in this ongoing debate.

By: Loner on 3/25/11 at 11:25

Thank you, Mike Burch.

I had Polish-American Felician nuns K-8...in a 3-room schoolhouse, right next to the RC church. Altar boys became altered boys. The kids were not brain-washed, their brains were dry cleaned.

The education came with a heavy price...the fear of post mortem justice.

But still, I admire those "brides of Christ" for their dedication, devotion and work ethic. On balance, it was a very rich experience.

By: Mike Burch on 3/25/11 at 11:26

I have read Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus." By the time I read it, I had already come to the same basic conclusions. It seems obvious that different copyists changed the Biblical texts in places, to conform to their own beliefs. The perfect example is the census of David.

After David took the census, thousands of Israelites died and someone concluded that God was angry about the census having being taken. But one writer had said that David never disobeyed God except in the matter of Uriah and Bathsheba. This created a dilemma: if God hardened David's heart to take the census, as one writer claimed, then God would be responsible for thousands of deaths. So another writer changed his version of the account to say that Satan hardened David's heart to take the census. This second account appears in Chronicles, and this is the first appearance of the name Satan in the Bible.

One verse says God hardened David's heart to take the census.
Another verse says Satan hardened David's heart to take the same census.

If the Bible is infallible, it seems Satan is God!

But the more obvious explanation is that two different writers were wrestling not only with theology, but with things that other writers had said in the past.

Was David the man after God's own heart, really? According to the Bible, David killed every woman when he smote the land. When Jerusalem was taken from the Jebusites, David had the lame and blind slaughtered because he hated the handicapped. Jesus had compassion on the handicapped. If Jesus was the man after God’s own heart, David surely wasn’t.

David never "repented" because with his dying breath he commanded the assassination of Joab for having shed innocent blood. But it was David who had awarded the captaincy of his armies to Joab for murdering the lame and the blind! So if David is in heaven, along with other mass murderers like Moses and Joshua, who slaughtered women and children, it seems anyone can enter heaven.

David believed in “salvation by grace” long before the time of Jesus, as he said that he realized God did not desire sacrifice, and could simply choose not to impute sin. That’s a pretty neat system for men who go around murdering women, children and the handicapped.

Six Hebrew prophets said that God did not desire sacrifice. Jeremiah went so far as to say that the Levite scribes had doctored the Bible to such an extent that the children of Israel no longer knew what God had said, and that God had not commanded animal sacrifices when Moses led the ancient Hebrews out of Egypt. The Levites clearly created the book of Deuteronomy during the reign of the child-king Josiah, pretended to “discover it,” then went around murdering any priests who disagreed with them. The book of Deuteronomy instructs the Israelites over and over again to take care of Levites and give them free food. The book also instructs the Israelites to murder girls who had been raped, or sell them to their rapists (so they could be raped “legally” the rest of their lives. Parts of the Bible were written by men so evil my skin crawls when I think about what it must have been like to grow up under their thumb.
It’s past time to be honest about the Bible, and admit that parts of the Bible did not come from a wise, loving God, but from ancient goatherds who treated their women and children like property. If a girl lost her virginity, even if she had been raped, she had lost all value to her father because he could not longer sell her to another man for a dowery. So she could be sold as a sex slave or brutally stoned to death.

If this is the wisdom of God, then God really must be the Devil. But why not give God the benefit of the doubt, and simply accept the fact that parts of the Bible originated in the minds of evil men? But then there is no reason to “believe” in the verses that condemn homosexuals. If the Levites were wrong about murdering girls who had been raped, they could just as easily have been wrong about homosexuality. If we can’t believe all the Bible, why not focus on the good verses?

Mike Burch

By: dargent7 on 3/25/11 at 11:30

Being "gay" is not a personal choice. Who, in their right mind, would "choose" to find a man's hairy chest, back, and as**s attractive?

By: dargent7 on 3/25/11 at 11:34

Pie-Man: Maybe I "missed your point(s), but you say certain inflammatory statements, then back-peddle when asked for clarification. eg. "homosexual tendencies", "gay life-style", "sex before marriage is a sin". (wow!)
Maybe it's you who misses your own "point(s)".

By: Loner on 3/25/11 at 11:34

But Mike, if the Land of Israel was taken by force, using ethnic cleansing and by way of horrific war crimes, then the Jewish claim to a national homeland in Palestine is based upon a 4,000-year old illegitimate claim?

The Christians believe that the modern state of Israel is prophecy fulfilled and the "right to exist" is underwritten by the Jewish God and Jesus too. Any opinion on that?

By: Mike Burch on 3/25/11 at 11:36

Loner,

I don't deny that Christians can be good people, and do good things, in spite of the oppressive, hell-based theology. But does religion help them, or hinder them? Mother Teresa, the most famous nun of modern times, confessed in her personal writings that she experienced fifty years of spiritual dryness, in which she never felt the presence of God. We can and should praise her for her many good works. But would she have been happier herself if she simply did compassionate good works, and didn't have to fear that most of the people she was helping would end up in an eternal hell?

I was never happy in my church because I would constantly think about all the poor, suffering people God was going to send to hell. When I finally realized that hell was not a Biblical teaching, that was one of the happiest days of my life. I felt as if the weight of the world had been lifted from my shoulders.

How many priests and nuns do good works despite the darkness and oppression of their chosen religion? My guess, based on my own experience, is that many people walk around carrying a heavy load of sadness and anger, at the injustice of hell, for anyone.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 11:40

Men are like sheep. I heard this often in church, but domestic sheep are rather stupid animals.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 11:47

I think if you are looking for God then religion is not where you find the truth. The whole truth is something that is always just out of reach and I don’t think that we mortals would truly know it. Not is this universe away.

BTW what happen to the gay’aliens?

By: brrrrk on 3/25/11 at 11:55

Mike Burch said

"I don't deny that Christians can be good people, and do good things, in spite of the oppressive, hell-based theology."

I defer to my man Mark Twain who said,

"Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion."

and

"A religion that comes of thought, and study, and deliberate conviction, sticks best. The revivalized convert who is scared in the direction of heaven because he sees hell yawn suddenly behind him, not only regains confidence when his scare is over, but is ashamed of himself for being scared, and often becomes more hopelessly and malignantly wicked than he was before."

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 11:59

Mike-

If people believe in a God, then I think you would realize that God does not send people to hell; it is that people are not able to find their way to Heaven .

I love to stand out on a clear night away from city lights and look at the Milky Way and imagine just how big it all is and how small and insignificant I am. It makes me feel like I am apart of it all, Very clean of heart and soul.

By: Mike Burch on 3/25/11 at 12:00

Loner,

I am an editor and publisher of Holocaust poetry. I deplore what the Nazis did to the Jews. I deplore what American Christians did to Native Americans and blacks. How can I not deplore what Israel has done to the Palestinians?

How can I not deplore the fact that American churches and the American government have supported and funded this new Holocaust, the Nakba (Arabic for “catastrophe”)?

I know many of these Palestinian people — fine people — who have lost everything because of American hypocrisy and hubris. How can my heart not break for them, knowing what my religion and my government have done to them?

Do I believe that Jesus Christ would have told rich Jewish robber barons that they had the "right" to steal the land of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian farmers and their families, leaving them homeless and destitute?

No, I cannot believe that Jesus would ever condone such a thing. Not at the time of Moses, and not today.

Do I believe that God "gave" Palestine to the ancient Hebrews? No, because according to the Bible, they took the land via ethnic cleansing and genocide. How can a loving, wise, just God command that women and children be slaughtered?

If I have to choose between not harming women and children and a book, I will choose not to harm women and children. I have never lifted a finger to harm a woman or a child. According to the Bible, Moses, Joshua and King David were mass murderers who slaughtered women and children. I think my morals are much better than those of the men who wrote the Bible, to be quite honest. I imagine that yours are too, unless you’re a serial killer. (Smile)

Jesus didn't command or condone such things. How can anyone reconcile the theology of Moses with the compassion of Jesus? I realize that Christians try to do this, but to me it makes no sense. It's like trying to reconcile Hitler and Jesus. Parts of the Bible are good. Parts are worse than Mein Kampf. Jesus said that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and vice versa. A man like Hitler or Moses is not going to embrace everyone with unconditional love and compassion. A man like Jesus or Gandhi is not going to cause the suffering and deaths of women and children. How can anyone possibly claim that Jesus commanded Moses to kill mothers and their children? And yet the Bible clearly claims that God led Moses and Joshua on a bloody rampage. Now we have American Christians like George W. Bush and Sarah Palin who insist that God “gave” Israel to the Jews, when the Bible clearly says that it was taken the old-fashioned way: the same way the other savage tribes took land, while claiming their gods were leading them and fighting with them.

How can we believe that God gave anyone a license to steal the land and homes of innocent women and children, knowing all the suffering and death that would result?

Mike Burch

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 12:09

Mike-

Hell we got one poster, which thinks God created war just to keep the population down. If he really believes in God he would understand that God had other means in keeping the population down.

By: Mike Burch on 3/25/11 at 12:10

brrrrk,

Mark Twain is one of my favorite writers, and probably America's greatest critic of orthodox Christianity. I've published a number of his epigrams online, at

www.thehypertexts.com

You might enjoy the page, which ranks extremely high with Google. My site gets around half a million page views per year. If you want to check it out, just do a Google search for "epigrams" or "epigrams in literature and poetry" and look for the URL above.

Here are a few of my own epigrams on the subject:

Life’s saving graces are love, pleasure, laughter
(wisdom, it seems, is for the Hereafter).

There is no better tonic for other people's bad ideas, than to think for oneself.

If God
is good
half the Bible
is libel.

And here's a humorous epigram of mine:

Nun Fun Undone"

Abbesses'
recesses
are not for excesses!

Mike Burch

By: Funditto on 3/25/11 at 12:15

Nemo - D7 has no gaydar

By: PhiDelt496 on 3/25/11 at 12:18

Dargent,

I dont see how anything I said was inflammatory. My point is that we are all sinners and the Bible says to "remove the log from your own eye before you remove the splinter from your neighbors" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

You are taking my comments out of context and calling them inflammatory and derogatory, and I dont appreciate it. I followed my "homosexual tendencies" remark with "heterosexual tendencies". I do not believe that premarital sex is wrong or immoral, I was simply stating the viewpoint of mainstream religion.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 12:19

Fun, I want be able to live this down will I?

By: Mike Burch on 3/25/11 at 12:20

Nemo,

I like your ideas better than those of orthodox Christianity. I like the idea that everyone will make it to heaven in the end, so you might call me a Universalist. People of all religions and non-religions have near-death experiences (NDEs) and claim to have visited heaven. I have never read a single NDE in which a human being was judged by God, Jesus or an Angel. Sometimes people review their own lives and conclude that they need to return to life here. But we never hear from the people who cross all the way over and don't return. Some people who have NDEs choose to leave churches that preach hellfire and brimstone. I know I'm happier here on earth since I gave up the strange idea that I would be "saved" at someone else's expense, by believing things that would make God and Jesus unjust. If I was Jesus, and had the ability to save everyone, of course I would. If I couldn't save everyone, I wouldn't call myself the Savior.

Mike Burch

By: PhiDelt496 on 3/25/11 at 12:21

Lets lighten this up, Nemo, did the gay aliens come up with hell, or the liberals? I cant keep this straight.

By: house_of_pain on 3/25/11 at 12:24

Since today is International Unwarranted Aggression Day, and I don't believe in "sin", gimme a stone, and I'll cast that mutha'.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 12:37

Mike-

I watched both my wife and father die in this house on two separate occasions. Their minds had left long before their bodies stopped and both kept staring at the ceiling. I did not think much of it with my father, but with my wife she asked me before her mind went, did I see the cracks in the ceiling. At first I though that it was her mind playing tricks, like it had with my father. However over the years I have accepted that just maybe she did see an opening to the next universe.

BTW I have died twice now and have never seen any thing of an afterlife. Maybe I am having to much fun in this one.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 12:40

Hell Phil, it was the conservatives. lol

By: PhiDelt496 on 3/25/11 at 12:46

I thought that in their great wisdom, thousands of years ago, the liberals predicted the arrival of the "one great true evil" they didnt know what to call it, so they used the name "Palin". They knew that this "evil" would gather up a group of followers and challenge the liberals power. So to defeat this "evil", they joined forces with the gay aliens and created a place to put the "evil" and all of her followers. They called that place "Hell". Thats what they taught me in public school anyway. The nuns in Catholic school had their story too, but we were too busy sneaking cigarettes to pay attention to them.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 12:51

LOL

Phil, you are going to fit in with the rest of us nuts just fine.

By: Loner on 3/25/11 at 1:11

Thank you, Mike for replying to my post(s). BTW, I am a member of a UU congregation; sounds like you share our views. Here's a link to my church:

http://www.pmuc.org/

If you click on the photo button a group shot comes up...old Loner is the silver-beard on the far left (of course).

Here is a link that has a better view of the structure and some history:

http://www.hds.harvard.edu/library/exhibits/monthly/200804.html

By: brrrrk on 3/25/11 at 1:18

Loner said

"If you click on the photo button a group shot comes up...old Loner is the silver-beard on the far left (of course)."

Wow, that's a pretty big organ you got there Loner!!! :-)

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 1:21

I am glade it you that brought that up, brrrrk. lol

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/11 at 1:28

Before the grammar cops shows up and whines…I am glade that it was you that brought that up, brrrk. lol