Up for Debate: Last U.S. troops leave Iraq

Sunday, December 18, 2011 at 10:48pm

Reflecting back on the war in Iraq as the last U.S. combat troops have left the country, what are your thoughts? Was the war that cost the U.S. about $1 trillion and some 4,500 Americans worth the outcome? Are the U.S., Iraq and the world better because of it?

Filed under: City Voices
Tagged: Up for Debate

106 Comments on this post:

By: Loner on 12/19/11 at 11:31

Ben, Ben Ben.....your 10:07 post is a classic. You ran down that litany of "good reasons" for invading Iraq like a Catholic Priest reciting the Credo. You got it down!

Trouble is, we did not invade Iraq and occupy it for any of those "good reasons". The real reasons for the invasion and occupation are far less noble and not so well known...you're a smart guy, Ben, you already know that; if not, you are far more gullible than I ever imagined.

Here's a snippet and link to a Wkipedia entry that touches upon some of the real reasons for the US invasion of Iraq, the regime change and the lengthy US occupation:

Snippet:
The Blueprint for the new Bush policy had actually been drawn up five years earlier by three of his top national security advisors, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and David Wurmser who were working for conservative pro-Israel think tanks. James Bamford explains, "the centerpiece of the recommendations was the removal of Saddam Hussein as the first step in remaking the Middle East into a region friendly, instead of hostile, to Israel. Their plan "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," also signaled a radical departure from the peace-oriented policies of former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, who was assassinated by a member of an extreme right-wing Israeli group."

Source URL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm

By: Ummm... on 12/19/11 at 11:32

Maybe the Democrats went along with it, but the indisputable fact is that Bush and Cheney LED US into the insane Iraq war. Saddam was a bad guy, sure, but he posed little threat to the United States- far less than the "dearly departed" Kim Jong Il, for example. Iraq was a war of CHOICE- and it was Bush and Cheney who CHOSE IT.

4500 dead Americans and one TRILLION lost taxpayer dollars, that's what their kind of leadership gives us.

By: Loner on 12/19/11 at 11:33

Ben, Ben Ben.....your 10:07 post is a classic. You ran down that litany of "good reasons" for invading Iraq like a Catholic Priest reciting the Credo. You got it down!

Trouble is, we did not invade Iraq and occupy it for any of those "good reasons". The real reasons for the invasion and occupation are far less noble and not so well known...you're a smart guy, Ben, you already know that; if not, you are far more gullible than I ever imagined.

Here's a snippet and link to a Wkipedia entry that touches upon some of the real reasons for the US invasion of Iraq, the regime change and the lengthy US occupation:

Snippet:
The Blueprint for the new Bush policy had actually been drawn up five years earlier by three of his top national security advisors, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and David Wurmser who were working for conservative pro-Israel think tanks. James Bamford explains, "the centerpiece of the recommendations was the removal of Saddam Hussein as the first step in remaking the Middle East into a region friendly, instead of hostile, to Israel. Their plan "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," also signaled a radical departure from the peace-oriented policies of former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, who was assassinated by a member of an extreme right-wing Israeli group."

Source URL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 11:37

You're right, dumba.., I'm surprised.

I didn't go to school when I was 16 because I quit school when I was 15 and went to work (that was back in the days when we had industry in the USA) then joined the Navy when I turned 17.

And you're also right on your comment about being a gifted child. Otherwise, why was I selected to enter my line of work based on the tests I was given in basic training that required a college degree for my job?

And why did the Air Force offer me a promotion if I would switch service to the Air Force? Stupid offer on their part, eh? Dumb ol' me, I guess, I turned them down. I loved my ships better than their planes.

By: dargent7 on 12/19/11 at 11:45

Everybody: Welcome "Ummmm" to the program....
Maury
The whole episode since 9/11 cuts not only across party lines, religious lines, but also hemispheric lines, as in brains.
Without question, Bush & Cheney, Inc. tied 9/11 to Iraq. None of this b.s. that Rice put out...imminent threat, mushroom clouds...was true. She was in on it.
50% of America has the brains of an ant and need a shepard to herd them.
GW Bush was their chosen leader.
These same hate Obama, like "yogis", and will stop at nothing to disparage him.
At this juncture, I don't give a shit....except: I hope to God Gingrich doesn't get the nomination and win, he's so despicable. If Romney gets the win, ok.
It's really hard to care any more.

By: Loner on 12/19/11 at 11:45

Ben, what makes you so sure that the "sectarian civil war, chaos and terror unseen in modern history" that you claim was avoided in 2007, will not occur in the near future, now that the US has drawn down and is leaving Iraq?

If that unfortunate scenario should actually happen, Ben Dover will be the first to blame President Obama for the final collapse of the neocon master plan for Iraq. No matter what, Ben will blame Obama...or Bill Clinton for the past, current and future holy wars tat we find ourselves mired in. If nothing else, Ben Dover is very predictable on these Bush-related issues....he is a Bushite....he's a bellicose believer.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 11:46

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 10:07
By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 9:51
How about giving me a lesson, Ummm. I was taught the method of 75 years ago when (I started to school.) When did you learn? I'd like to be brought up to date. What are the "new methods" given?

Old fogi you said that you started to school 75 years ago. That makes you 16 years of age. Now which of your lies are we expected to believe?

By: Loner on 12/19/11 at 11:52

Ummmmm...welcome, Ummm....nice easy username there...tough to make a nickname out of that one.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 11:56

How about mmmU for a nick name. lol

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 11:59

Where did you go to school, dumba..?

Or did you even go? When I subtract 75 from 81 I get 6. I was told I was 6 when I started to school and thought my teacher knew what she was talking about.

Go back to school, fella. Learn a little more about math and spelling.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 12:03

Oh I made another yogi. Silly me.

By: san r on 12/19/11 at 12:04

sorry for all the lives that were lost.
what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 12:05

Oh great yogi, why did it take you so long to see my obvious error?

By: Loner on 12/19/11 at 12:05

Kosh's 10:21 post gives evidence of the Energy lobby's role in instigating the Iraq & Afghanistan wars. I have introduced evidence of the Israel lobby's role in the run-up to the Iraq war. That's two thirds of the War lobby....the Defense lobby is the third component of a super lobby.

The Defense industry never saw a weapons system that they did not like, or a conflict in which they could provide the answers. After 9-11, the Defense lobby was certainly ready to find common ground with the Israel lobby and the Energy lobby.

Remember the acronym: DIE...it stands for Defense, Israel & Energy...that's the War Lobby, the Supreme Lobby, my friends...Presidents kneel before it. Political Parties worship it. Few dare to speak out in opposition....those who do complain are marginalized and ridiculed as bigots and conspiracy theorists.

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 12:10

Loner,

As a "Obama" lover, and a Bush hater, can you explain the ultimate differences between the two in politics?

The only difference I see is Bush was in the office legally but "Obama" isn't. They, along with Clinton before Bush, and Bush's "daddy" before Clinton, were all in a 'one world' government effort.

Will there continue to be will be the "one world" effort of the next president?

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 12:15

yogi is so stupid that he tried to put M&M’s in alphabetical order.

By: bfra on 12/19/11 at 12:18

yogi - Will there continue to be will be the "one world" effort of the next president?
===================================================

What is your expertise for pointing out mistakes?

By: Ask01 on 12/19/11 at 12:21

To the returning servicemembers, Welcome Home! Thank you for serving in a conflict which will be debated forever. We, as a nation, can not say thank you adequately to the survivors of those killed, or to those with physical and psychological injuries which may never totally heal. (I reflect every day how extraordinarily fortunate I was to survive 20 years with body and mind intact.)

These folks are exceptional examples of what makes this nation great, and I, for what it is worth, salute them.

Recalling when we left the region after the first Gulf War, I had a terrible premonition we would be back because we left the mission unfinished. Saddam Hussein was still in power, declaring he had won because he had not been removed, thousands of Kurds had been displaced and many dissident Iraqi's expecting the Coalition Forces to topple Saddam had come out to support us, exposing their identities to Saddam's supporters.

When we did go back, many of our previous supporters had surpisingly vanished, third country troublemakers had had time to establish networks, and we had left an impression on many we were not to be trusted, this in a region where people have long memories. That we had so many more negative experiences this time than last is, in retrospect, not surprising.

Removing Saddam was a noble cause, as was the goal to establish democracy, build schools and hospitals, and set the nation on the path to self determination.

We need to leave now, as we can do little more in my estimation. The Iraqi's must now take the lead and decide if they will use the tools provided or allow the nation to descend into pockets of tribal clans and civil war.

But their future is their problem now.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 12:26

Nice post… and I agree about our service men and women. However the real war was Afghanistan and not the chosen Bush war of Iraq.

By: dargent7 on 12/19/11 at 12:26

Did I miss the sale on aluminum foil at Kroger's this weekend?
"yogi" is now talking of "one world governments"? Clinton beat G HW Bush, and GW Bush beat Gore, and Obama beat McCain as function and conspiracy of a "world order"?
There's no "world order". There is a two party system that hates each others' guts and will never work together again in this century.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 12:28

Democracy should be a choice by the people and not reason for some other country to start a war.

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 12:40

bfra,

My expertise on pointing out mistakes is I'm using the best part of my brain they left in my skull. What's you expertise in making such idiotic mistakes? Can't you see beyond your nose?

By: Ummm... on 12/19/11 at 12:44

Per Ask01: "Removing Saddam was a noble cause, as was the goal to establish democracy, build schools and hospitals, and set the nation on the path to self determination."

I agree with all of that- BUT IT WAS NOT OUR JOB. The people of Iraq are the ones whose responsibility it was to pursue those "noble causes." We entered the first Iraq war because Saddam had invaded Kuwait. We drove him out, and GHWB was entirely correct in ending the war at that point. "Regime change" and "nation building" are not, and should not be the reasons for the existence of our military. That's why it's called the Defense Department, and not the Agression Department.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 12:47

Another great come-back from the Old dogi. lol

By: Loner on 12/19/11 at 12:47

Gotta roll....see ya!

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 12:51

Later Loner!

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 12:52

dargent7,

There hasn't been two parties in this nation for decades. If there was any actual republicans (hell, even democrats), they would have not allowed Barry Soetoro to usurp that office.

Tell me, If his name is Barack Obama, when did he change his name back from Barry Soetoro after his adoption? If he ever was an American citizen, when did he change his citizenship back from Indonesian? If that was the case, he could only become a naturalized citizen like all other foreigners, not a natural born citizen. Once you lose that status, you cannot get it back.

By law, once you give your citizenship up, you can only become a naturalized citizen if you later want to become an American citizen again.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 12:57

yogi is so dumb that he sent a fax with a stamp on it.

By: Ask01 on 12/19/11 at 1:22

Ummm... I suppose this is a matter of perspective. Saddam, I'm sure you will agree was a destabilizing force in the region. How destabilizing? To the degree Adolph Hitler was in 1930's Europe, threatening nations survival, or was he more akin to Moammar Kadahfi (or however we are spelling his name today) during his time in office, little more than an annoyance beyond North Africa, excluding, of course, Pan Am 103, the Berlin nightclub, and other terrorist acts he was supposed to be behind?

The situation would have been better, I believe had we removed him during the first Persian Excursion, and not waited, losing the momentum.

The armchair generals and Saturday afternoon diplomats will argue this conflict, just as they have nearly everyother one throughout history, and to what end?

With any luck we, the world as a whole, will learn to never do this again.

Fat chance.

Let's just agree to disagree, what say?

Have a great Holiday Seaon, whatever, your beliefs.

By: bfra on 12/19/11 at 1:22

yogi - My expertise on pointing out mistakes is I'm using the best part of my brain they left
===============================================

On those grounds, then you have none!

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 1:31

I will disagree with you on that account Ask01. Once he was gone, Iran became the destabilizing factor in the region. Even as despicable as Saddam was, he kept Iran and other in check.

Haven’t you been paying attention? Once he was gone Iran became a power.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 1:32

bfra, yogi thinks that the quarterback in football means change.

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 1:40

Hate to say it, bfra, but even with none it's better than yours.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 1:45

The U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and overthrow of Saddam Hussein eliminated Iran's most immediately threatening enemy. Moreover, in a democratic situation, the majority Shi'a lead the government. Some elements in this leading coalition and Shi'a militia groups are pro-Iranian, though the leadership as a whole has no desire to be Iranian clients. A Sunni insurgency, supported by Arab regimes, also pushes the post-Saddam government to view Iran as a necessary ally. From a situation in which Iraq menaced Iran, Tehran can now send in large numbers of agents and money to play a pivotal role in the country.

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2006/issue3/jv10no3a10.html

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 1:46

A pea brain is like a mountain compared to yogi’s micro half brain.

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 1:47

Are you Obama lovers aware of the recent National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that was passed has put us in line for martial law? Look it up and read Sections 1031 and 1032.

Only 13 Senators voted against that bill. Lamar Alexander and Bob Corker voted in favor of it. I haven't found how it was vote in the House section.

Get ready, children. You'll learn a lot in the next 11 months.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 1:47

When yogi drove to the airport to pick up a friend he saw the sign that said 'Airport Left'
He then turned around and went home.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 1:48

" yogi could have personally witnessed Obama being born out of an apple pie, in the middle of a Kansas wheat field, while Toby Keith sang the National Anthem – and he still think he was a Kenyan Muslim." –Jimmy Kimmel

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 2:02

I see Eric Holder has thrown the race issue in the pot over congress making an investigation into the "Operation Fast and Furious" event of "gun smuggling" to Mexican drug lords he oversaw.

According to the New York Times, Holder said; "This is a way to get at the president because of the way I can be identified with him. Both due to the nature of our relationship and, you know, the fact we're both African-American."

Well, Mr. Holder, why don't you two become plain damned old Americans? As far as we know, you may or may not have African ancestors.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 2:10

yogi was so stupid in school he even failed recess.

By: BigPapa on 12/19/11 at 2:35

Same people citing the same stuff, arguing the same positions ever single day.
At least Xmas is coming up and you guys can take at least one day off.

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 2:46

Now BP don’t let our little fun get you so upset and ruin your Holiday Sprits.

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 2:49

I agree, dumba..,

You're such a great comedian with your dumb comments you'd be crying.

By: bobteague on 12/19/11 at 2:52

U02Know

Saddam and his military threat were contained and he could have more easily been captured by Generals Norman Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell in 1991. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld & Wolfowitz said the Iraq war would take 6 months and cost $85billion. It has cost us 9 years of turmoil, thousand of deaths, generations of revenge, and more than $1.2 TRILLION. Here is an easy way to understand that much money. It is equal to $1million dollars per day for 3,000 YEARS. BTW - In February of 2001, just a month after Bush took office, a procurement officer was ordered to obtain desert camouflage combat uniforms and related supplies for an army of 400,000 troops, complete with desert camouflage paint for armored vehicles and supporting equipment. The Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld & Wolfowitz war with Iraq was pre-planned and engaged with the Supreme Court's selection of George W. Bush. Bush became president with the same cabinet that prosecuted the Vietnam War to another historically catastrophic loss. He knew he would have a second term according to Karl Rove, because every American president has been reelected to a second term while engaged in war. What a waste!

By: Captain Nemo on 12/19/11 at 2:55

"There's no weakness in us trying to reach out and seeing if we can find common ground,with yogi." he said Tuesday. "Now, there are going to be times where we can't. I was born in Hawaii. What can I say? I mean, I just ... I can't change those facts."

President Obama -

By: BigPapa on 12/19/11 at 3:53

You guys waste some much time, you should just take turns posting your political parties.
Dem!
Rep!
Right!
Left!

Just forget any supporting dialogue, it doesn't matter. Nobody is going to change their mind.

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 3:59

You left out Independent!, BigPapa. Am I all alone?

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 4:07

dumba..,

Barry said he was born in Hawaii. OK, I'll buy that, so why can't he show the original birth certificate issued by the state of Hawaii and why did he refuse to show what he finally showed for so long with the excuse the state of Hawaii would not issue it to him?

Why was the number on his "certificate" higher than the number of the twin girls born (I believe two days) after him in the hospital he claims to have been born in. Why won't his Social Security number pass the E-Verify program, and how could he have been born in a hospital that didn't exist on the day he was "born there"?

By: bfra on 12/19/11 at 4:12

yogi - Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

By: yogiman on 12/19/11 at 4:45

Sorry,

Thought you might have the answers. Anyone else have them?