Up for Debate: Spy vs. spy

Wednesday, May 9, 2012 at 12:23am

What do you make of The New York Times report that states a suspected suicide bomber in plot to blow up U.S. plane was actually a double agent?

Filed under: City Voices
Tagged: Up for Debate

185 Comments on this post:

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 11:26

I have no fundamental moral bias against siblings marrying each other; I do have objections to the idea of such couples procreating, based upon human genetics and associated science.

Inbreeding in humans has been shown to be fraught with genetic risks to the offspring.....perhaps the best example of this can be found in the Book of Genesis.....Genesis 19.

A snippet from this source follows:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chrincest.htm

Father-daughter incest near the town of Tzo'ar: In verses 30 to 38, the second story describes how Lot's two daughters got their father drunk on wine, engaged in sexual intercourse with him on two successive nights, became pregnant, and eventually gave birth to two sons Moab and Benammi. Their sons are described as founding the Moabite and Ammonite nations". (End snippet)

The Bible contains other stories about incest.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 11:33

BenDover on 5/9/12 at 10:53

What if the populations of East Tennessee and Appalachia wanted to codify their long-standing tradition of sleeping with siblings, loner?

"Daddy, Jolene and Me is gettin' married... and she's a virgin"

"No you ain't, Bubba... you ain't marryin' nobody who ain't good enough for her own kin".

But in order to shake all the negative stereotypes and have their brother/sister love recognized by society shouldn't that be allowed? As long as one or the other were sterilized and couldn't produce offspring what harm is it to society, Loner...

So, Ben, what are you getting your sister(s) for Mothers Day?

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 11:34

....just kidding, Ben.

By: yogiman on 5/9/12 at 11:38

I don't think the rulings between marriage and slavery can compare equally, Loner. Marriage is the unity between a man and a woman. Slavery is the selling of one man to another.

And believe me, marriage isn't slavery.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 11:43

For some troglodytes, "human rights" is limited to a single right, "freedom from slavery".

Some more advanced hominids have expanded the definition slightly.

Progress has been painfully slow....back-sliding occurs all the time, everywhere.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 11:48

To view the full and unedited International Declaration of Human Rights document, go here:

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Of course, some of those rights are disputed by the statists who feel that states rights trump all human rights.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 11:52

Mike Burch, are you there...I have a great link for you to check out....an American patriot who criticizes the "special relationship" passed it on to me on a CSM board....if you check back in, I'll post the URL.....it's dynamite.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 11:58

Remember President Wilson's 14 Points? He stated them in January, 1918....the man had prescience, IMO.

Here they are:

I. Open covenants of peace, openly arrived at, after which there shall be no private international understandings of any kind but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view.

II. Absolute freedom of navigation upon the seas, outside territorial waters, alike in peace and in war, except as the seas may be closed in whole or in part by international action for the enforcement of international covenants.

III. The removal, so far as possible, of all economic barriers and the establishment of an equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the peace and associating themselves for its maintenance.

IV. Adequate guarantees given and taken that national armaments will be reduced to the lowest point consistent with domestic safety.

V. A free, open-minded, and absolutely impartial adjustment of all colonial claims, based upon a strict observance of the principle that in determining all such questions of sovereignty the interests of the populations concerned must have equal weight with the equitable claims of the government whose title is to be determined.

VI. The evacuation of all Russian territory and such a settlement of all questions affecting Russia as will secure the best and freest cooperation of the other nations of the world in obtaining for her an unhampered and unembarrassed opportunity for the independent determination of her own political development and national policy and assure her of a sincere welcome into the society of free nations under institutions of her own choosing; and, more than a welcome, assistance also of every kind that she may need and may herself desire. The treatment accorded Russia by her sister nations in the months to come will be the acid test of their good will, of their comprehension of her needs as distinguished from their own interests, and of their intelligent and unselfish sympathy.

VII. Belgium, the whole world will agree, must be evacuated and restored, without any attempt to limit the sovereignty which she enjoys in common with all other free nations. No other single act will serve as this will serve to restore confidence among the nations in the laws which they have themselves set and determined for the government of their relations with one another. Without this healing act the whole structure and validity of international law is forever impaired.

VIII. All French territory should be freed and the invaded portions restored, and the wrong done to France by Prussia in 1871 in the matter of Alsace-Lorraine, which has unsettled the peace of the world for nearly fifty years, should be righted, in order that peace may once more be made secure in the interest of all.

IX. A readjustment of the frontiers of Italy should be effected along clearly recognizable lines of nationality.

X. The peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see safeguarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity to autonomous development.

XI. Rumania, Serbia, and Montenegro should be evacuated; occupied territories restored; Serbia accorded free and secure access to the sea; and the relations of the several Balkan states to one another determined by friendly counsel along historically established lines of allegiance and nationality; and international guarantees of the political and economic independence and territorial integrity of the several Balkan states should be entered into.

XII. The Turkish portion of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.

XIII. An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant.

XIV. A general association of nations must be formed under specific covenants for the purpose of affording mutual guarantees of political independence and territorial integrity to great and small states alike.

Source:
http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/President_Wilson%27s_Fourteen_Points

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 12:00

If only item XII had been implemented as Wilson proposed...the present Holy Wars might have been averted.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 12:07

Enough of my rants...I gotta run.....Mike Burch, here's that "dynamite" URL that I mentioned in my 11:52 post...it's in PDF and it is the field manual that the Israel lobby and their fans are using to peddle their agenda and ideology....apparently it was leaked.... it looks legit...what do you think?

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/Globalanguage.pdf

Better print it out...the site could vanish.

By: JohnGalt on 5/9/12 at 12:45

Ag7 wrote, "If I'm not called an ass-hole by noon on any given day, it's because the server went down."

But, you must admit, it is an accurate description.

By: jvh2b on 5/9/12 at 12:59

So, the south is, "just pretending" to be Christian?

You've never met a Southern Baptist, huh?

Bravo gd...bravo indeed.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 1:51

Got back early...good to see Galt is still sniping....that's his MO.

Concerning freedom, liberty and human rights.....a famous speech delivered by President Franklin D. Roosevelt comes to mind....it incorporated the following:

"In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression—everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way—everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want—which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants—everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear—which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world.

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb."

.—Franklin D. Roosevelt, excerpted from the State of the Union Address to the Congress, January 6, 1941

That's nice stuff...but the Defense, Israel and Energy lobbies have a different vision for the US and the world....and they have legally purchased the controlling interests of the US federal government.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 1:58

Roosevelt also said, in his "Fireside Chats" that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. This was obviously before Chuck Norris was born.

By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 2:04

Chuck Norris... double round kicks, double agents, double arse.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 2:10

You're pretty nonchalant about throwing away society's cultural mores and norms, there loner. Do you ever ask yourself if there might be a down-side to it? All we know for sure is that we won't be dancin' with the one who brung us. Some people point to such moral relativism that redefines right and wrong as a source of cultural rot in our society, loner. They say long forgotten lessons sewn into our culture and heritage are being lost to nothing more than immediate selfish gratification. How are you so certain your remedy is what is best for society?

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 2:14

Chuck Norris and the double-agent pantie-bomber walk into a gay piano bar... Chuck orders a furry-chin-fist with a splash of whip-ass. There were no survivors.

By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 2:16

lol

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 2:24

Ben, I am not certain that my "remedies" are what is best for society..never claimed infallibility. I try to follow the Golden Rule in my own life and it ought to be an over-arching theme for responsible governance.

Western civilization went through its long and dark period of Divine Right rule and Judeo-Christian theocracy ....."tradition" are "heritage" are both highly over-rated, IMO.

Hugh Heffner was on the right track, IMO...anything goes between alert and consenting adults....government and society at large ought to butt out of people's personal sex lives.

JFK had the right idea about the wisdom of absolute separation of church & state, IMO.

Some folks want to outlaw everything....you'd need a permit to do anything.....they claim Divine Sanction for their mission.

By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 2:24

One day we'll all be free, and we'll love each other, and be equal in every way. And be able to check our blood sugar anytime we want.
-Wilford Brimley

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 2:26

LOL, Ben on your 2:14...the running gag still runs!

Slack continues to crack me up...I love this site.

By: brrrrk on 5/9/12 at 2:29

BenDover said

"You're pretty nonchalant about throwing away society's cultural mores and norms, there loner."

Give me a break! "Society's cultural mores and norms", as you put it, have always been a moving target.

"They say long forgotten lessons sewn into our culture and heritage are being lost to nothing more than immediate selfish gratification."

Seems to me that this "selfish gratification" that you talk about is the entire premise behind Objectivism, and as I recall you're big on that. Better reread the Fountainhead Ben.... you're losing your way.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 2:38

Situational ethics, moral relativism, self-bullshitization....we all do it.....let's just drop the facade and admit it...we're all just hominids on a mudball.... we're just goin' with the flow... when it comes to the metaphysical, what in the hell do we know?

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 2:55

Brrrk, I'm quite aware of the limitations of Rand's objectivist views. I've been critical of Shrugged on many occasions for its single dimensional view of society. That's not to say that the Occupy Wall Street crowd couldn't learn a ton from her works about the dangers of centralized authority and cronyism though.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 2:55

Revising FDR's ideas for the 21st century:

Freedom of Speech....but face the consequences.

Freedom of worship...but Holy Wars Suck.

Freedom from want...but no free ride.

Freedom from fear...produces Road Kill.

By: Rasputin72 on 5/9/12 at 3:05

Mike Burch.......I find no reason to offer a rebuttal to your comment directed at me. I think you are exactly correct in your assessment of why and what is hated about the United States of America.

You offer some very good and solid comments on the subject.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:09

Finally, a "wedge issue"....Obama favors legalizing same sex marriages....Willard Romney is in favor of banning them....that's one of the 4-Gs....."Gays"....Possibly two of the 4-Gs, if you include "God" in that same issue.

Now we need to drag God, Guns and Guvmint into the wedgie issues for 2012.

That's already out there....Willard is for Guns, BHO is opposed.

Willard is for less Guvmint...BHO wants more....or so the narrative goes.

There they are folks...the wedgies of 2012....Rome burns... while we fiddle around with the wedgies....the special interests control both major parties and we are on the highway to hell....but let's talk about Gay Marriage....this is Democracy Ultra-Lite.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 3:10

And brrrrk... did you miss the part where loner said it's OK if brothers and sisters hook up? I'm not the outlier here.

By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 3:14

Yeah, next Obama comes out swinging about Romney's war on women, and his hatred of dogs. Issue oriented campaign ahead.

By: dargent7 on 5/9/12 at 3:17

John Galt:
Well, you try being born south of 8 Mile in Detroit in 1960.
I have to bull- shit like Mitt Romney where I was born because the '67 riots burned down my hospital, Mount Carmel, as well as Detroit Receiving, and all of my records of birth and citizenship, too. My birth cert., all incinerated.
According to anyone, I wasn't even born. No eye witnesses.
If I ran for President, I'd have a posse' of nuts after me saying I wasn't even born in the USA...."Detroit wasn't a state yet".
My father was born in Montreal, so that makes him an illegal alien and I'm therefore an illegal.
Most times, I can't even prove I'm white.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:18

Whoah! I never said "it's OK if brothers and sisters hook up". Ben has put some serious spin on what I wrote....here's a cut/paste of the relevant post:

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 11:26

I have no fundamental moral bias against siblings marrying each other; I do have objections to the idea of such couples procreating, based upon human genetics and associated science.

Inbreeding in humans has been shown to be fraught with genetic risks to the offspring.....perhaps the best example of this can be found in the Book of Genesis.....Genesis 19.

A snippet from this source follows:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chrincest.htm

Father-daughter incest near the town of Tzo'ar: In verses 30 to 38, the second story describes how Lot's two daughters got their father drunk on wine, engaged in sexual intercourse with him on two successive nights, became pregnant, and eventually gave birth to two sons Moab and Benammi. Their sons are described as founding the Moabite and Ammonite nations". (End snippet)

The Bible contains other stories about incest.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 3:21

That long collective, "whhaaaaattt?" was the black community wondering wtf done got into this brother. lol

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:25

We should found a site...WWW..Willards_War_On_Women.org.......Willard's WOW.....the personal struggle of a warrior in the war between the sexes....the War Willard did not run from.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 3:26

If you believe the creation fairy tale, mankind is a product of incest. So what's the big deal, Ben?

By: brrrrk on 5/9/12 at 3:28

BenDover said

"And brrrrk... did you miss the part where loner said it's OK if brothers and sisters hook up? I'm not the outlier here."

Do I care? Nope. They're two consenting adults. Hell I'd even support polygamy if it's between consenting adults.... my issue with polygamy within the LDS is that they often "marry" young girls who are not consenting adults.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 3:31

"I have no fundamental moral bias against siblings marrying each other; I do have objections to the idea of such couples procreating, based upon human genetics and associated science."

I qualified my scenario to exclude offspring loner. As long as there's no biological kids involved - like in a gay marriage - you say 'live and let live', right?

If I understand your point, the home is no worse than co-ed dorms... just so long as the taxpayers are funding Sandra Fluke's birth control and potentially necessary abortions.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:34

So, how is Willard going to balance the federal budget, Ben? He freely admits that , as POTUS, he'll run everything by the Israeli PM, before formulating or implementing any and all US policy in the region...if they go to war, we back 'em, no hesitation....sounds expensive to me.... Any GOP Talking Points memos out there on that?

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 3:39

I personally believe the story of Adam and Eve to be a form of allegory; but I could see why extreme genetic uniformity would have been problematic in our early lineage as it is with every species, gd... God must have planted the seeds to be less attracted to our sisters than first cousins... and less attracted to our first cousins than to our second cousins if we are to understand how we came to be. Part of the cost of the Fall, though, I guess.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 3:43

Take off the tin-foil hat, Ben. Seriously.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:45

I do draw the line somewhere....I am against marriages that wed the living to the dead... that wed the living to the unborn...that wed the unborn to the dead... that wed the dead to the dead...that wed the unborn to the unborn....and I am also against trans-specific marriage.....it's an exclusively Homo sapiens thing.

There...we ultra-libs do have our boundaries....I just stated mine.

By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 3:47

I have a problem with the rib thing. Why not poof.. a lady friend for you Adam?

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:48

Slack: Heads up!....."An unborn guy walks into a gay piano mortuary......."

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 3:48

Geeezzz, you too Brrrrk? When it became clear to me that Freud wanted to f*ck his mother, I didn't let it 'expand my mind', I quickly discounted his body of work as the horsesh*t it is.

Are you guys just so far out of touch with natural revulsions that you've become disconnected with humanity? It's no wonder you 'higher evolved' types who have ripped out your humanity and poured in its place the concrete of reason are so out of touch with what normal people feel and think.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:52

LOL, GD, on your 3:43....perfect timing.

By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 3:53

Attendent says.. are you a Sandra Fluke discard?

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 3:53

That's good to know loner. You are at odds with Allah in Egypt now.

I hear that in the recently liberated Cairo a widower's wife is obliged to sleep with her husband now for up to 6 hours.

Peace be with you.

By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 3:56

Gimmie my damn pills Romney, you women hatin' arsehole.
-Sandra

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:57

Remeber, "Hoeycomb", performed by Marty Robbins

Well, Honeycomb, won't ya be my baby, Honeycomb be my own
He took a hank of hair and a piece of bone
And made a walkin', talkin' Honeycomb
Honeycomb, won't ya be my baby, Honeycomb be my own
What a darn good life when ya got a little wife like Honeycomb

Well, it's a darn good life but it's kinda funny
How the Lord made the bee, the bee made the honey
The honeybee lookin' for a home
And they called it a honeycomb
And he roamed the world and he gathered all
Of the honey into one sweet ball
The honeycomb from a million trips
Made my baby's lips

Oh, Honeycomb, won't ya be my baby, Honeycomb be my own
He took a hank of hair and a piece of bone
And made a walkin', talkin' Honeycomb
Honeycomb, won't ya be my baby, Honeycomb be my own
What a darn good life when ya got a wife like Honeycomb

And the Lord said "now that I made a bee
I'm gonna look all around for a green, green tree"
He made a little tree and I guess ya heard
What then, well he made a little bird
And he waited all around till the end of spring
A-gettin' every note that the birdies sing
He put 'em all into one sweet song for my Honeycomb

Honeycomb, won't ya be my baby, Honeycomb be my own
He took a hank of hair and a piece of bone
And made a walkin', talkin' Honeycomb
Honeycomb, won't ya be my baby, Honeycomb be my own
What a darn good life when ya got a wife like Honeycomb

And the Lord said "now that I made a bird
I'm gonna look all around for a little old word
Sounds about sweet like a turtle dove
And I guess I'm gonna call it love"
And he roamed the world lookin' everywhere
Gettin' love from here, love from there
Put it all in a little old part of my baby's heart

Honeycomb, won't ya be my baby, Honeycomb be my own
He took a hank of hair and a piece of bone
And made a walkin', talkin' Honeycomb
Honeycomb, won't ya be my baby, Honeycomb be my own
What a darn good life when ya got a wife like Honeycomb
What a darn good life when ya got a wife like Honeycomb
(Honeycomb be my own)

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 3:57

"I have a problem with the rib thing. Why not poof.. a lady friend for you Adam?"

Maybe God did his will via alien abduction and cloning, slack. Seems to fit.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 3:59

Here is is performed by Jimmie Rodgers in 1965:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anRqh02N8UM