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Wednesday, March 30, 2011 at 10:05pm

 

Call Washington, D.C. [The hanging of the Confederate flag from the Shelby Street Pedestrian Bridge] is a case of domestic terrorism directed at black Americans. If a swastika were hung from that same bridge, the Anti-Defamation League would have a crew in town to report on the anti-Semitic incident. As long as it's just blacks being intimidated, no such terrorism reports will be filed. Intimidating blacks in the South is not really newsworthy. It happens every day.

Posted by "Loner"

 

 

89 Comments on this post:

By: Loner on 3/31/11 at 12:33

The Holocaust may be more recent than the US Civil War, but the KKK was active before and after the Holocaust.

Amy claims that the Nazi flag, the Swastika, "has a much more vile past " than the Confederate flag. Really? How so? Says who?

True, slavery was not genocide....the intent was not to exterminate the victims, on the contrary, they propagated them... they bred them like animals. No gas chambers back then.... slave-owners used whips, nooses and guns to intimidate and subjugate their victims.

African Negro slaves were imported to the American South in colonial times, beginning in Jamestown, in 1619. The horrors of slavery in America persisted until Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, in 1863. The human suffering was on a massive scale, and the injustice persisted for a long, long time....do the math.

Who suffered the most, African negro slaves in America or European Jews, at the hands of the Nazis? To me it's not worthwhile to argue either way.

For the record, in Germany today, simply owning a Nazi Swastika Flag is a very serious crime, punishable by imprisonment. But here in the USA, displaying the symbol of Southern white supremacy and treason is considered protected speech. Go figure.

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 12:36

Good comments, Amy.

Some people don't seem to understand; the past is time gone by. If good benefits were learned form it, it would never happen again. But too often when incidents occur it will draw memories of how things were in the past; simply repeating itself.

No one on this site was alive in the days of slavery in the US. They have no idea what it was like for anyone to live back then, black or white. It is simply presumed all whites believed in slavery. I doubt if there is many, if any, who can remember what it was like to live in the US when I was a child growing up in the 30s and 40s. I can guarantee you, it was more different then than it is today.

I think today we all agree slavery was wrong to begin with. Yes, some states decided they wanted to remain as a slavery nation so they receded from the Union.

So putting it into consideration the northern states had the right to tell the southern states how they should live their lives, why didn't the southern states also have the same right to tell the northern states how they live theirs?

By: Captain Nemo on 3/31/11 at 12:41

You want see me wearing any hoods unless it is for trick or treat.

However outside of reenactment of the Civil War or honoring Confederate soldiers that flag does not belong in public. It is the flag of a defeated enemy that should have died 146 years ago.

That is only 20 that you see.

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 12:48

Loner,

While I agree we agree on some things, I also agree we disagree on some things. As it is known, the Confederate flag was established in it's time period of our nation by certain people back then. They happened to be the people who believed in the keeping of slavery states and decided to go into recession. That, Sir, is history. The past is past. Let it stay in our history.

Do you believe the children of today should not be taught about the days of slavery in our nation? If not, what is to make you sure no one in the future of our nation will not think about creating slavery again?

As it has been said before; history repeats itself, too often.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/31/11 at 12:49

There you with silly post.

I don’t have to live in the time of slavery to understand that it was wrong and I would not want to be a slave.

By: AmyLiorate on 3/31/11 at 12:53

"To me it's not worthwhile to argue either way." - Loner

True enough. There are no victims of slavery alive today, there are people still alive from concentration camps. That's part of my observation. We are much further removed from slavery than we are from the genocide of the 1930s and 40s. But there's no real point in splitting hairs too finely.

Nemo, you're right about the 20 we see. I wish it were that we could all see the rest all of the time. It would be amazing to observe the hypocrisy because I'm certain even the haters amongst us still love the color of green and do business with all people around them.

Some people fly that flag at their home to honor all year long. They mostly do so with the US flag hoisted over it, showing their priority. I know of at least one Northern born lawyer who does a lot of work to honor the Southern soldiers. I should talk to him sometime about his reasons. I don't think he flies any old flags and I've never had any reason to think he is anything but a respectable person (aside from being a lawyer).

By: Captain Nemo on 3/31/11 at 1:02

Amy that is not true. There are victims of slavery today. Why do you think that the Civil Rights Moment started? You are a victim of slavery if you think that everything is hunky dory. Racial tension is an underlying beast that is just below the surface.

Sorry, I have never seen the two flag together other than at reenactments.

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 1:30

Captain Nemo (please excuse me for my incorrect name spelling),

Since you seem to be an expert in history, can you explain why segregation was allowed to continue (technically) in southern states after the Civil War?

Why did the former slaves have to wait until 1964 before segregation was abolished in our nation by LBJ?

By: Loner on 3/31/11 at 1:39

Yogi, kids should be taught about the history of slavery, we all agree on that. The role of the African Negro slavery issue in bringing about the Secession must not be downplayed by revisionists. The Great Secession was the act that sparked the war itself and the reason for the Secession was the African Negro slavery dispute....the tarriffs issue was not the issue that caused the rebellion, clearly it was slavery.

Kids need to learn and accept the truth; there was no genuine justification in the Southern casus belli, and no glory in the carnage that ensued. If the truth is replaced with myth, then 618,000 died in vain.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/31/11 at 1:39

yogi-

Don’t waste my time anymore. You seem to have all of the answers, you go figure it out.

By: AmyLiorate on 3/31/11 at 1:55

You're right about the residual effects of slavery and the war too. But there are no victims of US slavery today.

For example, a man might kill you. He may never be caught and yet your children and unborn grandchildren will have some element of loss. But your grandchildren are only remote victims of this crime. Great-grandchildren will probably see no effect in their life at all.

Let's not go further trying to split hairs.

By: brrrrk on 3/31/11 at 1:57

yogiman said

"Since you seem to be an expert in history, can you explain why segregation was allowed to continue (technically) in southern states after the Civil War?"

Google "Separate but equal" and "Jim Crow Laws" and educate yourself for once? Hell, I bet you're even old enough to have enjoyed the privileges of a "Whites Only" drinking fountain.

By: AmyLiorate on 3/31/11 at 2:16

For Nemo, instances where both flags are seen together. It's just a fact, mostly history types do this I guess. Does that make it ok?

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good ol' boy type I guess:
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http://flashnick.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Editorial-Print-Collection/G0000urb22HKN5Bc/I0000hEgj14YUArU < on a state capitol but I guess the state is terrifying it's own people.

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more historical oriented stuff:
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http://www.colliervillebattle.org/about_us
http://www.smithtownhistorical.org/events/civil_war/

http://www.sodahead.com/living/do-you-think-flying-the-confederate-flag-outside-your-house-alongside-the-american-flag-is-offensive/question-98128/?link=ibaf&imgurl=http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000098128/polls_flags_0418_228583_poll_xlarge.gif&q=us%2Band%2Bconfederate%2Bflag

So does this mean displaying the flag on equal platform with the US flag is OK? Does that mean the flag isn't racist, but the display is subjective? Does it just mean that it's always subjective? I'll grant you that anytime a racist displays the flag then it's being used as a symbol of hate. But then again the racists like to display the US flag with 50 starts!

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In all honesty I'm not so sure the klan used the confederate flag, I seem to recall somewhere that the klan promoted themselves as "american" and didn't use that flag until after to 50s.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRZH7BLczGb-TlE5CmiiAqrFGnBfdEzbVWq0KdGdBaZEecgvtclQ

And there's always the story of Mr. Edgerton, but you guys all think he just hates himself. The NAACP used to think highly of him. I don't know why he marches around with that uniform on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8TyU6yRA3k

It looks like the man is welcomed into the Sons of Confederate Veterans all over the country. But the SPLC calls the SCV a hate group.

By: Loner on 3/31/11 at 2:19

Amy wrote, "...there are no victims of US slavery today." Is that a fact? How naive & smug can one get?

I disagree, the entire nation is still suffering from the lingering effects of that awful conflict. It seems valid to conclude that since 618,000 brave, physically and mentally fit, young men were killed, the nation was robbed of the contributions of their would-be progeny. Those unfit for service, the draft-dodgers and such were left behind, to plant their seed in disproportionate numbers.

Arguably, nobody suffered more than the African Negro slaves; once freed, they were subjected to decades of KKK terrorism and Jim Crow. The ripple effect of slavery persists. Visit Washington, DC.

Jewish people still observe a holiday that commemorates their release from bondage in Egypt...thousands of years ago. And that's fine. American blacks, on the other hand, are supposed to buck up and put all that behind them? That's a double standard that I do not accept.

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 2:21

Yes, brrrrk,

There was "white only" drinking fountains in my youth. There was also whites only restrooms in those days. I often wondered what the black people were supposed to do when they "had to go".

They also could only ride in the back of the bus back then. They also had coaches on trains for "blacks only" back then.

But consider; who stopped slavery in our nation? It was only the whites that stopped slavery.

Some of the segregation tactics were slowly being ceased when LBJ signed that bill in 1964.

Harry Truman had integrated the services taking effect in January 1948, but there was still segregation when those men were off base. You could be "buddies" on base but segregated off base. It was hard to understand back then.

By: AmyLiorate on 3/31/11 at 2:24

Loner said: "The role of the African Negro slavery issue in bringing about the Secession must not be downplayed by revisionists."

But I will point out a bit of omission:
"African Negro slaves were imported to the American South in colonial times, beginning in Jamestown, in 1619."

I'm not saying Loner is a revisionist, but a simple line like this is where many people base their ideas on history and move on to something else. It's a seed of some type of Northern moral superiority.

Indeed Jamestown may take the hit as where the first African slave set foot on this continent, but you will find that an extremely large number of slaves were brought to Boston, New York and other Northern ports. Lots of money was made selling these people. And they were put to work as slaves there as well.

As slavery was outlawed in Northern states, they didn't free the all those enslaved people. They simply sold their slaves to states that had yet to outlaw the practice. Northern laws did a lot that broke up families of slaves as they were sold down the road. Factually we can see that New York still allowed slavery just a few years before the war. Funny how only a few years can make all the difference. But before we start counting numerical support, you have to note that less than 1% of people in South owned more than 10 slaves. That not many more owned any slaves at all!

Again, I'm not defending slavery in any way. Loner is right, people need to know about this party of history. But lets not pretend that slavery doesn't have it's share of creating wealth in the North and South, that one side is so so much purer than the other based on only the last decade of time before and during the war. Union generals owned slaves during the war and yes after the Emancipation Proclamation. I've stated these things on here in the past, even the Union forces occupying Nashville built their own fort using slave labor. I'm not giving them extra vilification but let's keep all factors in light, just pointing out how its ironic that the saviors partook in the sins but we Americans seem to largely forget it all.

There are no winners from the war back in the 1860s. A result was a gain in freedom by former slaves, but at a great and unnecessary cost along with a loss of freedom by a great number.

My observation has been that we possibly killed 600,000 people in vain, destroyed millions of lives and ruined property on one of the largest scales ever. Corrupted many otherwise good people and traumatized as many as were unshackled.

It says a lot about Americans. It was (and is still?) very war like and shows a reduction in civility that should shame everyone on both sides. I wonder if it was worth it. I do seriously wonder if the animosity hadn't built up, could maybe ten more years of slavery have been endured and 600,000 lives not have been lost? Could reconstruction have been bypassed and thus carpet baggers and even the klan would never have existed.

We'll never know if just a few years could have resolved this without bloodshed. But what value can we place on time in slavery verses death? It will always be a very complex subject to study.

By: Loner on 3/31/11 at 2:27

One more item...Holocaust survivors were financially compensated by way of international reparations agreements...But, the freed African Negro slaves never got their 40 acres and a mule...their descendants never got the benefit of any reparations.

Multiply that colossal rip-off by hundreds of thousands (one could also add unpaid interest on the owed money) and one can start to understand how and why American blacks are in the disadvantaged situation that they are in today.

By: AmyLiorate on 3/31/11 at 2:31

Loner don't put words into my mouth.

"American blacks, on the other hand, are supposed to buck up and put all that behind them?"

A day to celebrate freedom from bondage is surely a good idea.

"I disagree, the entire nation is still suffering from the lingering effects of that awful conflict."

Indeed we agree! We can split hairs, but we don't have to we all understand the lasting effects.

It's not just the conflict itself, you could also add consideration for the damages caused by reconstruction. Even Lincoln did not seem to be in favor of that injustice, a time that bred the klan. Sadly Booth killed him and there wasn't enough of reason to prevail after that, the south was destined for more suffering than necessary.

No one won.

By: Loner on 3/31/11 at 2:37

Please, do not get me wrong, I am not trying to downplay the horrors of The Holocaust or insinuate that the survivors are not entitled to compensation. I was trying to illustrate the double standard applied to the sufferings of the African Negro slaves and their often-despised descendants, as opposed to that of the Jewish people.

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 2:38

Loner,

Correct me if I'm wrong. The Jewish people observe a holiday based on their form of religion. How can that justify the Negros to have a holiday based on their race? Being of a color is not a religion, it is a simple fact. Should the Caucasian also have a holiday based on their race?

I agree, there is still much racism in our nation. May I ask the question: why are there so many "clubs" based on a requirement of a person being black to belong to that "club"? Such as the NAACP, the Black Miss America contest, the black caucus of Congress, the black universities...etc.

How many white only "clubs" or organizations do you know of? What would be the reaction if such organizations were attempted to be formed?

By: brrrrk on 3/31/11 at 2:53

yogiman said

"May I ask the question: why are there so many 'clubs' based on a requirement of a person being black to belong to that 'club'? Such as the NAACP, the Black Miss America contest, the black caucus of Congress, the black universities...etc."

What a disingenuous statement. All of these institutions came about directly as a result of blacks being excluded from the others. And yes, there are still "whites only" groups in this country, they just don't advertise it.

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 2:57

Loner,

Your comment about the 'freed African Negro slaves never got their 40 acres and a mule". True. Per se, they didn't, but their ancestors (and many people of that race who have no slavery ancestry) have been collecting the interest on their slavery investments.

When can they be considered overpaid? Or are they to continue to be paid in interest only until our nation collapses?

By: AmyLiorate on 3/31/11 at 3:14

Yogi, that last remark is pretty strange.

I think the black congressional caucus does have white members. The group focuses on black issues. Freedom of association is a right, so if there is a black pageant then no one should complain, however that is a two way street. We could have many pageants, an all inclusive, a black, a white, a latino, an asian...

Back to something serious, can we make reparations to blacks? Is it possible to fairly compensate people today, how would you divvy things up? Do we also give reparations to the people who were here before Europeans? Would they go before or after descendants of slaves?

Since about 95% of the people in 1860 had never owned a slave do their descendants still have to pay? Do people who lost a family member in the war have to pay? Does HK Edgerton get nothing since he supports the Southern effort at independence?

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 3:48

Amy,

To refresh your memory, Mr. Cohen was denied joining the black caucus because he is white. Yet he represents a district in Memphis where the vast majority of the people are black.

And to make reparations to the black people of today? Why? Why do we owe the people of today who has no ancestors who were slaves?

Admittedly, some of their ancestors were segregated for decades but segregation was abolished entirely in 1964, almost half a century ago.

How long must we pay our ancestors debt? Especially when our ancestors were not slave owners?

Okay, so its okay the black people focus on black interests. What would be the effect if the white people had while only gatherings to focus only on issues regarding the people of the white race?

By: AmyLiorate on 3/31/11 at 3:50

"What would be the effect if the white people had while only gatherings to focus only on issues regarding the people of the white race?"

You're not supposed to bring up the elephant in the room. I guess it's because reparations are owed?

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 4:00

Looks like its becoming a "Katie bar the door", Amy.

Ever stop to wonder what this nation would be like if slavery had never been allowed? That's just a part of what history could be like. Better, or worse?

By: Loner on 3/31/11 at 4:01

Yogi is starting to resemble a wobbly top, spinning erratically, running out of energy?

Yogi, being Jewish is both a religion and an ethnicity...the Jewish People and Judaism are inextricably intertwined.

Black folks are collecting interest on the reparations owed? That is so goofy, that I refuse to respond....Yogi is just being a troll, IMO....addressing his posts is a waste of time.

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 4:22

Loner,

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I believe you, and all others, are entitled to your ways of thinking. So what entitles you all think I am all wrong and should think only as you do? Are you so perfect in your thoughts? Am I so wrong in my thoughts?

It only depends on who is thinking.

By: parnell3rd on 3/31/11 at 5:25

Well Loner if your were offended by a flag, so be it.
I've personally seen the Stars and Bars flying in New York State.
I know of a place in America where the Union Jack is flown every day.
How come people are allowed to fly other nations flags in the USA?
Loner, you think that flag is bad, what about all of the "black on black crime that takes place every day? Where is the Black Leadership wanting to stop this?
If it is so bad here in the south, then why does the Census show Blacks moving back to the South from the North?
We have become a nation of the offended. If something offends us we get a lawyer and sue.
I am an American and no word or nationality goes before that word. i don't care where my people came from, I AM GLAD THEY CAME HERE!

By: yogiman on 3/31/11 at 8:12

Amy, re: your 4:14 post commenting about my last remark being pretty strange, i.e., until our nation collapses.

By that I meant look into the present state of our nation. It is on the road to bankruptcy and I honestly believe that is being done intentionally. When it happens, as I have posted before, our nation will be place in a state of emergency and place under marshal law.

When that happens you can forget about going to the voting booth again in your lifetime here on earth.

A screwball? A nut? An idiot? Time will tell. And I honestly hope I am one of the three, or hell, all three if it will keep our freedoms.

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