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Monday, April 4, 2011 at 10:05pm


It's going to be a long four years...remember jobs? [Tort reform] is not a jobs proposal, no matter what [Gov. Bill Haslam] says. No one will be employed. Fred [Thompson] is even against it.

Haslam is all hat, no cattle.

Posted by "treehugger7"



94 Comments on this post:

By: Loner on 4/5/11 at 8:57

You jinxed me, Ben, SHB: "...or does that sound queer?"

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 8:58

Not that there's anything wrong with sounding queer.

By: Captain Nemo on 4/5/11 at 9:02

There are no shootings in the neighborhood or d7 and house would have been shot a long time ago.

By: Loner on 4/5/11 at 9:03

No homophobia with Doctor Ben Dover, bagelophobia perhaps, he wants to pack heat while at Star Bagel.

Actually, that's not a bad idea, Ben, anti-Semites might target a bagel, lox and cream cheese could be the interviews and talk-show appearances would could run for office....and then hire me....your old buddy. I could be your in-house devil's advocate.

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 9:05

Atheists seem to have no aleigence to culture and judge themselves to be smarter as a result of it. Thus they lead society to re-make all the forgotten mistakes that have given society our traditions and mores that have evolved over the past 4000 or so years of recorded civilization. People of spiritual faith tend to place more value on these traditions and teachings... it's kinda like dancing with the one who brung 'em.

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 9:08

Damn... I said I didn't want to get dragged into the ID thing and yet here I go...

I like onion bagels toasted with butter. Is that an option or is there some purist bagel hierarchy I need to attend to?

By: Loner on 4/5/11 at 9:10

Ben, please define, "aleigence to culture".

By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 9:16

BenDover said

"Atheists seem to have no aleigence to culture and judge themselves to be smarter as a result of it."

Sorry Ben, but that's the biggest load of horsesh*t I've ever heard. But then again, atheists tend to score higher on religious knowledge than the devout, so what does that tell you?

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 9:18

In my observation most atheists defend their position on reason, in that they reason there is no God. The implication of that is that we can pick and choose the cultural norms by which we wish to abide... moral relativism. The problem is that wrapped up in all of that culture passed down to us from the surviving religions are long forgotten lessons that our society is a result of. Thus if we have no 'allegiance to culture' we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of generations past. I'm not trying to be absolutist here, as noted in my earlier comment about uber-faithful... but instead of the two realms of faith an reason duking it out they should team up for the advancement of society.

By: Loner on 4/5/11 at 9:30

Atheists, and true atheists are actually very rare and I agree that those individuals have no "allegiance" to any organized, faith-based dogma, myths, superstitions and culture-based prejudices, vis-a-vis the existence of a God or Gods...or the existence of a Goddess, or Goddesses. Old Loner, for example, has actually seen goddesses....I'm a believer, not an "atheist".

True atheists are the mavericks who reject and eschew organized religion in its entirety; historically, such individuals have been persecuted without mercy. They burned heretics at the stake...crucified and impaled them. Their families too. Their genetic contribution to the gene pool has been minimal and that is the result of deliberate and organized genocide upon those humans who rejeced conventional wisdom and dared to think freely.

This time-honored pogrom upon free-thinkers was and remains a religion-based crime against humanity.

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 9:35

Yeah, brrrk... and I meet a ton of atheist who can't explain how carbon dating works yet their 7th grade science teacher told them it was an absolute science so that's what they believe.

Now I believe radio-carbon dating is pretty accurate as is other forms of radioactive dating but I don't call someone an idiot who doesn't believe in it because I know how it works and I know there's a very very broad assumption that the ratios of Carbon 12 to the Carbon 14 isotope has always been consistent (well consistent up until we harnessed nuclear energy in the 40s anyway). The fact is though that this is an assumption just as there is an assumption about absorption rates of the isotopes.

So when I hear an atheist calling an 8000 year earth believer an idiot and they can't explain to me how carbon dating works it's the same as a person of faith not having all the answers to a Christianity quiz. The fact is there are neophytes on both sides of this equation and to use the neophytes to discredit either side is to use a fragment to discredit the whole.

Again though, it's usually the atheists who claim the high ground; often without realizing that atheism is a leap of faith from agnosticism just the same as any other faith.

By: Captain Nemo on 4/5/11 at 9:41

Hell Ben religions have been repeating the same mistakes over and over. That does not hold water. So the atheists has nothing to do with making the same mistakes.

By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 9:41


From my perspective it seems that what you're arguing for is cultural stagnation. Look, I'm all for preserving traditions; frankly there are some traditions from my youth (even religious ones) that I wish were still around. But the fact is that we live in a multicultural society and have from the git go, and as a result of that, our society (and culture) is always going to be in a state of it or not.

The other thing is, what "culture" are you talking about? Loner asked, "define allegiance to culture"; I'd go even deeper and ask "define culture". Our culture is an amalgamation of every culture that has come to our shores. There's a myriad of traditions in this country that have become accepted as "American" whose source is anything but "American".

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 9:42

The pendulum has swung though loner and society has successfully purged ideas of creation and the benefits of culture from public life in our society today. By not settling on and allowing a basic Tao in our culture we have become unmoored. We don’t have a common set of rules that we either choose to follow or break… we instead find it perfectly fine for everyone to make up their own set of rules and live by them. In doing so we doom ourselves to re-making the mistakes of all the past generations.

By: Loner on 4/5/11 at 9:44

Ben, since all the faiths cannot all be true, accurate and the only way to salvation, does it not seem plausible that perhaps none of them are true, accurate, and the only way to salvation? Perhaps they all have elements of truth and all contain elements of falsehood...that's not an illogical conclusion, IMO.

Picking and choosing different elements from various faiths to suit one's individual spiritual needs...or rejecting them all...seem like reasonable choices.

The prisons are filled with believers....I would guess that true atheism among dangerous criminals is rare or even more rare than it is in the rest of society.

The idea that a dogma-free lifestyle is an immoral lifestyle is a vicious canard...a lie conceived and promulgated by clergymen of every faith. There is no evidence to support the notion that atheists have no moral compass and are therefore a danger to the general population. There may be evidence to support the contrary.

By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 9:57


You might be interested to know that Jesse Ventura has "come out of the closet", that is to say that the other day he announced for the first time that he is an atheist. And as part of his announcement, he stated that he believes that it's time for all atheists to come out of the closet and stand as a political force. Given that some have estimated that atheists might represent as high as 10% of the population, that would be a sizable voting block.

By: Loner on 4/5/11 at 10:01

Ben claims that, "We don’t have a common set of rules that we either choose to follow or break… we instead find it perfectly fine for everyone to make up their own set of rules and live by them."

Ben, Ben, Ben....I'm surprised at you, we have the US Constitution and its Amendments as a common set of rules that we either follow or break. Then there's all those federal laws, rules regulations...state level laws, rule and regulations too...even county, city and village levels of governance, law enforcement and can you claim that we have no common set of rules?

We even have UN-generated Global Rules to live by, Ben.....get with the program!

Are you talking about a common set of faith-based spiritual rules to live by? Sounds like George Soros' - Tony Blair's global religion stuff. I did not figure that you would be a Kum-BY-Yah man, Ben Dover....who knew? You may be ready for Brushwood after all, Grasshopper.

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 10:03

Jesus afirmed the top 10 list, he added the golden rule, and said above all else love God with all your heart. That's a pretty good starting point whether you believe in the resurrection or in any of the divine revelation of the bible. Sharia law on the other hand is in direct opposition to the liberties of our society. There are religious beliefs that are compatible with our culture and there are those that are not. If we are a society of moral relativist then it creates a vacuum where there is no fundamental truth. In my opinion unmooring in this way is far more detrimental to society than letting little Johnny learn that the scientist really don't have all the answers and that there are other explainations to the questions of creation. Explainations that are not incompatible with the science and that have served generations past just fine.

By: Loner on 4/5/11 at 10:04

I hear Ventura wants to be Vice-president...some pair him with Ron Paul at the top of the ticket. I might vote for that pair.

By: Captain Nemo on 4/5/11 at 10:05

Ben, I would find fault with the world religious cults more to the failures of society and not with atheist. Far out number atheist are not the ones spear-heading a culture revolution. Unless you think by asking people to think, is causing us to be unmoored? Unmoored from what, a belief that has a dubious pass of murder and enslavement.

Please explain unmoored and from what, a world according to Ben?

By: Captain Nemo on 4/5/11 at 10:06

brrrrk if it is only 10% I’m sure that they will be burned at the stake.

By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 10:07

BenDover said

"We don’t have a common set of rules that we either choose to follow or break… we instead find it perfectly fine for everyone to make up their own set of rules and live by them."

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that what laws are for?

C'mon, lets get down to brass tacks here.... what you're essentially saying is that you don't approve of a secular set of rules established in such a way as to allow all cultures and religions to exist without fear of persecution, ridicule, or intimidation; thus creating an environment where all cultures can practice their traditions in harmony as long as they adhere to the laws of the land. You would rather that our government adhere to theocratic ideas.

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 10:12

No what I'm saying is that I belive the Constitution has been wrongly interpreted and that it really protects the churches from government influence and not the government from religious influence.

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 10:16

Nemo, why focus on man's abuse of religion for power and ignore the horrific episodes in history where they attempted to purge society of religion. Doesn't the French Revloution, Stalin's Russia and Mao's China rank with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials? That's a confirmation bias of the worst kind you've got going there friend.

By: BenDover on 4/5/11 at 10:20

Wow... I said I didn't want to get off on this topic and I've done gone and spent a whole morning on it. Guys... I've got to get some work done. I've enjoyed the discussion and I'll try to check back in later.

Toodles y'all... bd

By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 10:23

BenDover said

"Jesus afirmed the top 10 list, he added the golden rule, and said above all else love God with all your heart."

That golden rule that Jesus "added" is called the Ethic or Reciprocity and it significantly predates Jesus.

Eygpt: "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do."

Greece: "Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." – Pittacus

China: "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucius

By: gdiafante on 4/5/11 at 10:30

Jesus also said you cannot serve God and mammon (wealth, money, riches, etc.).


By: Captain Nemo on 4/5/11 at 10:35

Remember Ben you are the one that started this today.

Here is an example, how about something a little simpler and closer to home Ben. When yogiman makes a statement like, God created war so to keep the population under control. That is not cause by atheist’s belief. It is cause by misinformed followers.

By: Captain Nemo on 4/5/11 at 10:42

Never take bull from someone trying to sell you a religion.

Captain Nemo-

By: Captain Nemo on 4/5/11 at 10:46

Perhaps I should say to anyone that tries to sale me a false religion.

By: revo-lou on 4/5/11 at 11:01

{By: gdiafante on 4/5/11 at 11:30
Jesus also said you cannot serve God and mammon (wealth, money, riches, etc.).


Some people are going to be VERY disappointed! I wonder why that message gets lost more than any other

By: gdiafante on 4/5/11 at 11:16

They shouldn't be, rev. Jesus made it perfectly clear. He also said that if you want to be perfect, you should sell your possessions and give to the poor.

I don't see that one happening either.

The result: it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter the kingdom of heaven.

And I felt sorry for Trump because of his hair...

Of course, modern religious interpretation of these remarks tend to downplay them...that's not what Jesus really meant...he just didn't see the rise of the Capitalist economy...

By: yogiman on 4/5/11 at 11:48

Ain't this an amazing site? One person makes a remark about a couple of government jobs and it opened the door to (right now) two pages of religious remarks, statement and comment. Really, what have these posts to do with government jobs?

You either believe or you don't believe. It is simply a one person consideration. so why does all the people of the different religions believe they are right and everyone else is wrong? Simple. Its because of their beliefs.

By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 12:09

gdiafante said

"Of course, modern religious interpretation of these remarks tend to downplay them...that's not what Jesus really meant...he just didn't see the rise of the Capitalist economy..."


By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 12:35

Let's do away with welfare....

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.

8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.

10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 1:31

Consider this....

When Teddy Roosevelt talked about the Square Deal, he talked about those things that he thought the average American should be able to do with a fair income; those things being, put food on the table, pay for your housing, be able to take a vacation, send your children to a good school, pay for your healthcare, etc....

In today's economy it is estimated that the minimum amount of income necessary to provide those things is $68,000 (of course this fluxuates depending on where you live). So for the sake of simplicity lets say it takes $70,000. Also, bear in mind that the income of the average American family is about $50,000.

Now lets take a look at the average hedge fund manager. It has been reported that last year the income of the average hedge fund manager was about 2 Billion a year. To put that into a format that is more visually comparable to the income of the average American that can barely afford TR's Square Deal, that 2 Billion is $2,000,000,000.

Now lets say we do a comparison between just half of what the average hedge fund manager makes and the income of that American who can just begin to afford the Square Deal. If we divide the income of that average American into just half of the income of the average hedge fund manager ($1,000,000,000 / $70,000), you get 14,285.72. That means that that average American making $70,000 would have to work 14,285 years to make just half of what that average hedge fund manager makes in ONE YEAR.

By: yogiman on 4/5/11 at 1:44

Ah yeah brrrrk,

Teddy's wuz the good ol' days. The sad point is, the times they are a changing. I remember when I quit smoking cigarettes were 50 cents per pack. The first pack I had bought 30 years before that was 8 cents a pack.

Before WWII, the men worked to provide money for the house and the women stayed home a "baby sat" with their children. She also cooked the meals, swept and mopped the floors.

I believe when I first went to work after my time in service I made 4500 per year. That's not per month, that's per year. Ah yeah, the times they have changed.
(Sorry, I can't prove that. I just lived through it.)

By: brrrrk on 4/5/11 at 1:52

Conchs give Scott a (urine) sample of their love|

It also turns out that Scott's wife has a financial interest in a company that does urine testing. No conflict of interest there.....

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