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Monday, May 9, 2011 at 12:06am


Mike Burch, that's just a bunch of contrarian babble used to justify your defense of the underdog regardless of the real history and any sense of right and wrong.

The situation is not an oppressed minority but rather a political machine that has refused any reasonable two-state compromise and is fueled by continuing conflict. It's just like the Sharptons and Jacksons of our society today keeping the race issue on the table because they would become irrelevant without it.

The fact is that Israel is a tiny postage stamp of a country in the middle of the Arab world populated by the descendants of people who were pushed out of their various homelands in the Middle East in the way you claim the Palestinians are being treated now. Israel has agreed to a two-state solution but it is the Palestinians who always balk because then they lose their status as oppressed minority.

The whole Arab world tried to take out Israel based on anti-Semitism and hatred yet this little country turned around and whipped all of their a--s. Since then some of the more reasonable countries that are not Islamic theocracies intent on holy war have made peace with Israel and they are encouraging the Palestinians to do the same.

Posted by "BenDover"



Filed under: City Voices
Tagged: Israel | Palestinians

142 Comments on this post:

By: frodo on 5/8/11 at 10:22

Mike has his view of the situation in Israel/Palestine. His argument depends on us accepting his credentials and knowledge of that situation as exclusively enlightened. But BenDover and a few others are calling him on it. Like some of you, I know several people who either live in Israel or have spent much time there over the years. They do not see the situation the way poet Mike sees it. I think Mike is taking poetic license, especially with the word "Holocaust."

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 4:39

Good morning, Nashville!

Ben regurgitates the Kosher Kool-Aid: "The whole Arab world tried to take out Israel based on anti-Semitism and hatred yet this little country turned around and whipped all of their @$$s."

With all the billions in US aid squandered on these Jewish theocrats, they should be able to kick the @sses of the destitute, stateless Palestinians... as well as their neighbor's @sses....hey, with their arsenal of nukes, and their hit-squads they could kick our @ss....and most Americans, of Ben's ilk, would probably say that we had it coming.

Ben is a smart fellow, but he has been completely duped by the Jewish supremacists, or maybe he just admires supremacists in general...after all, he is a professing Christian...the ultimate in supremacist ideology.

Perhaps Ben's professed "love" for the Jewish State and the Jewish People is based upon a desire to have every Jew in the USA pack-up and the Jewish dumping grounds state in Palestine. Making the USA "Judenfrei" may be the real goal. Herzl predicted that sort of thing....he was wrong on just about everything, except for that. He knew that the most anti-Semitic nations would be Israel's primary bank-rollers and defenders.

I sense that Dr. Dover's love for the world's Jews is disingenuous, because he has not objected, not one iota, to the killing of tens of thousands of unborn Jewish children every year, in Israeli abortion mills...generous US aid to the abortion-loving, apartheid-loving, Chosen People makes these state-sponsored abortions free or very cheap. US Christians have turned a blind eye to these Israeli abortion mills...why is that?

Ben is not alone, I dare to guess that over 90% of Americans share Ben's passionate attachment to the apartheid Jewish state...oh, they have their "good reasons" for this Israel-first view; their real reasons are more cynical, concealed and self-serving.

I'd like to see Ben Dover and the other American-born Israel-firsters convert to Judaism and make Aliyah to Israel; this would leave only the America-first citizens behind, to re-establish the nation, as the Founders envisioned exercise its own sovereignty, and cease to be a shameless vassal state of Israel.

Holy Wars Suck.

By: dargent7 on 5/9/11 at 4:44

He completely lost me when he insinuated America was somewhat and somehow responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
Reminded me of Ward Church of U-D fame.
Same mind-set.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 5:04

Darge, why do you doubt Bin Laden's stated reasons for the 9-11 attacks?

Do you think that he kept his real motives secret? Why on earth would Osama Bin Laden conceal his reasons for his antipathy towards the USA and Israel?

Folks may reject Bin Laden's sense of moral equivalency, but the fact remains, Bin Laden, in all likelihood, hated the US for the reasons he stated; not for the fabricated reasons trumpeted in the US media and in the halls of Congress. Israeli propaganda would have us believe that Osama Bin Laden was simply a madman who attacked for no good that distorted view, the 9-11 attacks were unprovoked, random acts of violence committed by deranged persons.

Helen Thomas explained why and how the grand distortion was effectively pulled off. Open your eyes, man.

By: dargent7 on 5/9/11 at 5:15

Helen Thomas? An old, senile Jew explained it all? Think she has a distorted viewpoint and a slant towards the Jews like yourself?
Was the USS Cole rafting bomb done because of their attitude towards Israel? Or the 1993 World Trade Center Ryder truck bomb?
It's US properties and US citizens who are targeted.
Israel is a minor disagreement admist the much larger picture.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 5:16

On the other hand, congrats, Ben Dover, on having one of your comments elevated to the lofty NCP Reader Comment status. You have arrived, Ben.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 5:32

Helen Thomas is of Lebanese extraction, Darge, she's an Arab. Her age has not dulled her perception, it has loosened her tongue.

Al Qaeda correctly views the US as Israel's chief benefactor. Israel's brutal oppression and occupation of Palestine is made possible by generous support from its best friend, the USA. Just as many Americans rationalize their support for Israel, by claiming that "an enemy of my friend is my enemy", the militant Arabs feel that a friend of their enemy is also their enemy.

The Israel Palestine conflict has been festering for 63 years; largely because the US has allowed it to fester. The US failure to act decisively in resolving this conflict is directly attributable to Israel lobby influence on the US Congress and the Israel-friendly US media.

Israel can command full US representation in Congress and often does; but the Israelis pay nothing in US taxes...they receive US tax support, they do not contribute, however.

Israel openly crafts US policy in the ME and Central Asia, we are fighting on two fronts, to make the world safe for apartheid Zionism, while the Israeli armed forces simply watch from the sidelines.

Israel owns the US vote/veto in the United Nations General Assembly and the UNSC.

The Founders would be confounded to witness this vassal state arrangement.

By: BenDover on 5/9/11 at 6:22

Geeezzz Loner you make out bin Laden like he was some kind of mastermind. In truth it turns out he was just a pampered narcissistic rich kid... outraged on behalf of others... who stirred up, Manson style, a bunch of wild-eyed kooks to attack the Evil Satan. He's like Michael Moore with an AK47 and a cadre of homicidal maniacs with nothing better to do because Osama was bogarting all the p*ssy.

“You kill the infidels who are the reason you have no p*ssy… and if you are fortunate enough to die in your service to me… Allah will bestow on you 72 virgins in heaven!! Allahu Akbar!!!”

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 6:22

Let's face it, the 2-state solution for the Israel - Palestine conflict is not going to work; the Arab "state" in Palestine would be split into disconnected, economically disadvantaged enclaves with limited autonomy, surrounded by hostile's an apartheid-type of solution. The injustice would remain, the antipathy would remain and the violence would continue.

It's too late for that sort of partitioning arrangement. The half-million Israelis in the "settlements", on occupied Palestinian land, have made that solution impossible.

The one-state solution is the only remaining alternative. Consensual annexation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank - with full Israeli citizenship for the Palestinians living there - is a more realistic goal. Gaza could revert to Egyptian control, become part of this Greater Israel or choose autonomy.

This idea of an integrated, bi-national, Greater Israel should definitely be considered by a war-weary US public.

We are going bankrupt, as a grim result of the current "special relationship" . And we look like racist colonialists in the eyes of billions; and that does matter, folks, if you want to boast about "American Exceptionalism".

Time to end US-sponsored Jewish apartheid and Jewish Jim Crow...we should withhold US aid until Israel agrees to fully integrate the Palestinian Arabs into their society. No integration = No US aid. That approach would be both morally and fiscally sound, in my opinion.

As it stands right now, the state of Israel's values approximate those of the CSA, not the USA. Israel is in desperate need of some 21st century enlightenment and the US needs to look after its own national interests, not those of the Jewish State.

By: yogiman on 5/9/11 at 6:23

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Everyone likes someone but hates others.

Ae you the only one who knows whom to love and whom to hate? Yes, but only for yourselves.

By: yogiman on 5/9/11 at 6:24

And I should have added; for your reasons only.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/11 at 6:29

Ben, congrats on your post being published, and I agree.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 6:34

Ben Dover, Bin Laden was a mastermind, in the same way that Adolf Hitler masterminded the rise...and fall of the 3rd Rev. Jim Jones masterminded David Koresh masterminded the Branch Davidian Theodor Herzl masterminded the Jewish State in Karl Marx masterminded communism.

Those men were intelligent, charismatic and ambitious...and sadly, they were all unbalanced. Millions have died, millions more had their lives ruined....thanks to those "masterminds". It seems like evil genius is just as prevalent in human society, as the positive type of genius seems to be.

We need to start a "Genius Watch" site, to keep tabs on the up and coming "masterminds". An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 6:47

Ben Dover is consistent in one sense, he gives Obama no credit for brains and leadership and he gives Osama no credit for brains and leadership.

Of course, Ben Dover is still carrying the torch for the Bush royal family; he thinks that the Bush boys were leaders with real brains. He'll support Jeb Bush, if he decides to run; Ben likes right-wing political dynasties. Bless his heart.

By: BenDover on 5/9/11 at 6:50

I think Condi / Jeb would annihilate Obama / Biden. And then the adults would be in charge again.

By: budlight on 5/9/11 at 6:52

Ben, your post makes sense - common sense.

Here's a quote I found in my e-mail that sums up how we need to conduct our hearts:

""I will mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King Jr.

Loner said: "We need to start a "Genius Watch" site, to keep tabs on the up and coming "masterminds". An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

We have one, Loner; it's called a Terrorist Watch list, I believe. Have a good day.

By: budlight on 5/9/11 at 6:54

"Ben likes right-wing political dynasties. Bless his heart."

And Loner likes left-wing terrorist organizations. Bless his pea-picking little 'ole heart.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/11 at 6:56

"And then the adults would be in charge again." you've lost me. You're starting to resemble your own definition of a Liberal.

By: BenDover on 5/9/11 at 6:59


By: slacker on 5/9/11 at 7:06

Tim Pawlenty is the Repubs. best shot Ben.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/11 at 7:15

I'm still hoping for a Trump/Palin ticket. Not because I think they'd lose but because it would be one of the most magnificent trainwrecks in the history of western civilization...and entertaining as hell.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 7:17

Congratulations Ben you are now a star.

Ben says that Israel is a postage size country that ahs whipped the whole Arab world. Maybe Ben has given us the perfect reason to leave that part of the world to themselves. Perhaps they then can solve their own problems themselves. However even if this was to take place, we would still be hated by many for hour arrogant Holier -than-thou attitude toward the world.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 7:17

This, IMHO, is a post to remember, when dealing with Doctor Dover:

By: BenDover on 5/9/11 at 7:50

I think Condi / Jeb would annihilate Obama / Biden. And then the adults would be in charge again.

That sounds like Idgaf, a poster who once patrolled these NCP boards. Anybody seen hide or hair of that curmudgeon lately?

Ben's dream ticket might actually draw.....flies. It stinks.

Misogynous males and racists of either gender could point to that ticket and their support for such a ticket and say, "I support Condi & Jeb, now call me a n*gger-hatin', woman-bashing knucklehead."

Jeb Bush is now tanned & rested...never mind his dad's S&L bailout fiasco, his brother's Texas S&L thievery and his other brother's inept handling of 2 elective wars and the mis-steps that crippled the economy, in 2008. Never mind his family history of corruption and ineptitude...Jeb Bush is presidential material.

And Condi Rice? She carried water for Bush, like an ass...actually, her ass got her her job, IMO. I agree, Ben, she shakes a nice tail-feather...if her brains were in her ass cheeks, the woman would be a towering intellectual figure....but alas, such is not the case, Doctor Dover.

The GOP's best shot is with Eric Cantor at the top of the ticket and a hottie as the VP....Michelle Bachman might do; there are other hot-looking GOP babes in Congress and in the various state houses.

Eric Cantor would steal the Jewish support from the Democrats and the eye candy VP candidate would be a great distraction from the real issues. That combo might work, Ben, I hope they do not go with it, of course.

By: BenDover on 5/9/11 at 7:18

I've not seen anyone yet who can go toe to toe with Obama and his lap-dog media except maybe Rubio or Ryan. I'll check out Pawlenty.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 7:21

Thanks for the call, Captain Nemo and NCP made my Mothers Day.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 7:21

I thought it would be a Palin/Trump ticket. lol

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 7:25

Eric Cantor would be a media favorite, Ben. And the hottie GOP VP babe would attract the cameras, like bears to honey. By Nov. 2012, Obama's star quality may be fading; people may want a change for no good reason. It's all bread & circus, Ben.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 7:26

I did not realize that you are a Mother, Loner. he he he

Thanks !

By: BenDover on 5/9/11 at 7:26

I think Trump's in it to be the spoiler. He's running around stomping roaches like the vertically challenged Ross Perot. Stagecraft to be sure. I think he wants Obama to have another term and he's probably been paid to make it happen.

Then there's the Sept. / Oct. surprise we may get in '12 if Obama actually rat-holed the $700,000,000,000 in TARP repayments rather than just blew it. That would be best case for the TARP funds and worst case for the country; because his lap-dog media would lap it right up and not question him cutting the deficit in half with Bush's big receivable. Then Obama rides the wave to victory and $1,500,000,000,000+ in deficits for all the years to come after.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 7:27

Palin & Trump? The Quitter & the Bullshitter? That's a beautiful combo.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 7:29

From Sunday

By: BenDover on 5/8/11 at 4:28
People's ignorance about Bush is astounding.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/8/11 at 5:27
Maybe so Ben, but your ingnorance about Bush is just shameful.

By: yogiman on 5/9/11 at 7:29


Once again I agree with you on some facts. But I think you should add Barack Obama on your masterminds list.

Just looking into his supporters here at NCP (including you) tells a lot about the man and the people who are following him. When people follow him simply for the color of his skin makes them colorblind. But you consider we others as racists because we see this whole matter differently.

No consideration has been thought about as to why he has spent millions of dollars on his "privacy". No president before him has kept all of their papers "secret". And he has put this nation deeper into deb than all presidents before him: Combined.There has been and there is more coming out about this man taking the USA from us, we the citizens.

And my major question on this whole matter is: Why did Congress allow it to happen? My thoughts? They are walking down the aisle with him. Why? For the power they are gaining from it.

Ok, folks, you can look at me as a damn fool if you wish. But I think it is past time you should be asking yourselves some serious questions about why. Why did this happen in our nation? The stupid answer will be; Because "our" group swallowed it and allowed it.

Good luck on you futures.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 7:31

Here is an area we can agree on. Trump is in this only to promote Trump.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/11 at 7:35

I've thought that about Trump also, Ben. I mentioned it to blanket a few weeks back. Not sure about him being paid, unless you mean the Bush Tax Cuts.

Obama could cut the deficit drastically if he ended the wars and had the balls to end the tax cuts. I think it's interesting how eager lawmakers are to attack other programs yet completely ignore these considerable drags on the deficit.

Not that I would expect the Dems to suddenly grow a spine and actually propose this...

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 7:42

Just reading your post tell us a lot about the people of the Tea Party. Scared, paranoid and delusional. When proof appears before your eyes, you see his skin color and call him African.

Did you question Bush or any others candidates for proof of country of birth. Will you do that for every candidate from now on?

b/t/w Nothing sneaked up behind me Sunday and I'm still here.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 7:43

Trump will try to euchre the anointed GOP ticket, if he doesn't get to call the trump suit? That would be cut-throat euchre...the 3-man game. Trump is acting like he has a loner hand; Obama will sand bag him...again.

Obama is the Jack of spades, Biden, the jack of clubs...The Donald is the jack of diamonds, Palin is the queen of hearts...Trump-Palin would be euchred, if they went with diamonds as trump....the thing is, Obama gets to call the trump suit in'll be spades, again.

The winner of a bitter and close 3-way race would lack a clear majority of the people's vote...that would mean de-legitimization of the POTUS, in the eyes of millions of sore losers. Violence sometimes follows a simple game of cards.

In this not-so-far-fetched scenario -that is to say a POTUS with no authority - the whole US house of cards could come crashing down. States could head for the over.

By: revo-lou on 5/9/11 at 7:47

{Darge, why do you doubt Bin Laden's stated reasons for the 9-11 attacks? }

That is right, OBL was just a bleeding heart and he was trying to right a few wrongs in the world.

Man, there are some DUMB people around here.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/11 at 7:47

Loner, once again you proclaim the end of the world scenario...first it was WWIII because of South Korea, then the assassination of if there is a closely contested election (hmm, that's never happened before) the union will quickly desolve.

In short, you're a spaz.

By: slacker on 5/9/11 at 7:50

Loner, after the usual suspects are eliminated, Gingrich, etc. It will end up being Romney or Pawlenty. Cantor & Ryan will sit this one out.

By: yogiman on 5/9/11 at 7:51


If Tim Pawlenty is the Republicans best shot, why did Herman Cain knocjk the hell out of them all in their debate?

By: BenDover on 5/9/11 at 7:52

GD the problem with raising taxes on the 'rich' is that you've got a lot of two earner households out there where the 2nd income is being taxed in the highest marginal rates plus paying all of the FICA. Now these people, especially if they've got kids, can make the switch to playing defense with the family budget rather than offense without hurting their standard of living at all since 1/2 the 2nd income is going to taxes in one form or another.

It might not be politically correct to say it but although these people are in the minority population wise they are the government's target market for taxation and they need to be encouraged to play offense rather than defense because that is where the money is. The trick is to lure these 2nd earner professionals off of the bench so that they will spend rather than conserve to sustain the economy. Otherwise the baby sitter gets fired... the housekeeper gets fired... they start washing their own cars and dining in more.

Also when 1/2 the 2nd income goes to taxes in one form or another they soon realize that they've got to earn $1.50 or more for every $1 they spend. Better said, $1 saved is $1.50 earned. So instead of hiring someone to do the lawn you see dad out there with his lawn mower on Saturday rather than going to the lake. He's doing his own oil changes and car maintenance because of the tax penalty to do otherwise. He's building his own deck instead of having it hired done. That's why retail home improvement stores and auto parts stores are booming right now. The income tax is a substantial disincentive to hiring someone rather than just doing it yourself. It not only shows up directly if you are employing someone but it shows up indirectly in every service we buy.

Then compound that with the redundancies in tools of the trade... and lack of efficiency through specialization and you end up right where we are today. The people with money end up with more of it and the people without money can't find a job. The society is not running on all eight cylinders because you've got people with graduate degrees and 20 years of experience in a tech field building their own decks and mowing their own lawns. The cure is the cause.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 7:58

It's all very simple, Yogi, special interests have purchased major influence of both the Dems and the the party leadership level and through legal and generous sponsorship of individual candidates. Some special interests have purchased influence in both parties..they call the shots, regardless of who wins the election.

The recent SCOTUS decision (Citizens United) has opened the valves...a lot more special interest money can now flow into politics...legally. The republic may be doomed to collapse, by way of legalized political corruption.

Right now, the three biggest special interests are Defense, Israel & Energy (DIE: the war lobby). Defense & Energy support both parties, but the Israel lobby is usually pro-Democratic, not pro-Republican...that's why the GOP is toying with the idea of making Israel a wedge issue for 2012...they'll try to out-do the Dems in kissing up to our Israeli overlords....with Cantor on the GOP ticket, the tactic could work....Israelis generally hate Obama's guts.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/11 at 7:59

And that's the fatal flaw of "trickle-down" economic thory...the rich do what everyone else does when times are tough, they stop spending.

A good analogy would be a child's allowance. You reward your child for doing their chores or other things with an allowance. But, if your kids don't do their chores, no allowance.

It's pretty obvious that companies and individuals who are the benefits of the tax cuts are not reinvesting, they're saving. So, let's cut off the allowance and give it to those who are doing their chores.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 8:00

yogi we really don’t need your permission, but thanks for the offer. lol

The only question as to why this happen is that Bush was asleep at the wheel and he when went into Iraq we swallowed that Sadam was apart of the attack.

Now when you say good luck on our futures, can we expect that you are leaving us? After all there is only 3 days left.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 8:06

I call it trickle on , instead trickle down.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 8:06

"Spaz"? Is that akin to "retard", Gdiafante..or closer to "idiot", or "Moron"?

I know that you consider me to be an arrogant, smug, know-it-all, whose arrogance is born of ignorance, not wisdom. Your personal contempt for me has clouded your view of my ideas; that's too bad, but I can deal with that sort of jealousy and contempt...I've been dealing with it all my life.

Go ahead, flail away, GD....knock yourself out.

By: revo-lou on 5/9/11 at 8:08

{ but I can deal with that sort of jealousy and contempt...I've been dealing with it all my life.}

Which may explain why you haunt these boards, some 1500 miles from your home.

By: Loner on 5/9/11 at 8:11

BTW, I got the "Are you Wille Nelson?" treatment in two bars in Hammondsport, NY this past your heart out, Gdiafante. Old Loner is on a roll.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/11 at 8:14

I'm still laughing about that from yesterday, Loner

How is that old lady doing?.

By: BenDover on 5/9/11 at 8:20

Well if the government takes an additional $10K a year from me all it's doing is firing my housekeeper, substantially dinging the server staff at Jonny's and Bailey's; and is pushing me closer to that point where I just stay home and quit paying income taxes all together. I can do home improvements and flip my house every two years for the tax free capital gains gd and come out twice as good. Plus with only my wife's income we'll be back in the range where our deductions are not all disqualified or phased out.

How does that benefit the economy? 20+ year professional in high demand for his tech skills decides to go off the grid. That's what you are seeing in this down-turn already. Too many households playing defense rather than offense with the family budgets.

It's got a lot to do with fear and uncertainty stoked by this administration with the health care debacle, increases in regulatory compliance costs and its hostility to small business. The threat of increasing taxes can not be underestimated in its effect also. Plus you have the fiscal malfeasance that promises coming inflation.

You are buying the party line on all of this crap yet you don’t ask where all the $700,000,000,000 in TARP repayments went. Shouldn’t it have offset part of at least one of these $1,500,000,000,000 deficits? Yet you go on cheerleading like your main concern isn’t winning the game but the hope of being stupped by the quarterback after the game. Well let me tell you… you are being stupped right now.